Control, People Pleasing & The Victim Triangle with Allie Schultz

In this episode, I sat down with Allie Schultz from Write Your Wellness to delve into the concept of people-pleasing through the lens of control.

Here's a breakdown of our discussion:

The Victim Triangle: We explored how individuals can get caught up in the Victim Triangle, cycling through the roles of victim, persecutor, and rescuer.

Strength in People Pleasers: Contrary to cultural beliefs, we discussed how people-pleasers aren't necessarily weak. In fact, they often exhibit strong control over how others perceive and feel, albeit in a more covert rather than over way.

Recognizing Your Skill Set:  When you think about having control in various situations, does it feel empowering to you? Or does it feel yucky?  Understanding one's sense of control (or perception of control) in different situations can offer insights into whether they're embodying a victim or self-empowered hero role.

Victim Role: When someone assumes the victim role, they believe that events are happening to them, casting themselves as powerless recipients. However, this mindset inevitably creates a need for a villain figure. This dynamic fuels a cycle of drama and conflict as victim energy spawns the creation of a villain role.

Persecutor/Villain Role: Those who adopt the villain role often seek to exert control over others. When individuals feel victimized, they may easily slip into persecuting their perceived persecutor, effectively becoming a persecutor themselves. Recognizing the limits of one's control and focusing on personal agency can help reduce conflict and drama in these situations.

Rescuer Role: While assuming the role of rescuer can feel empowering, it's essential to assess whether intervention is genuinely needed. Stepping in when assistance isn't warranted may inadvertently cast the rescuer as the villain in the other person's narrative. Additionally, excessive rescuing can lead to enabling behaviors rather than genuine aid. It's crucial to evaluate the necessity of help and whether intervention would truly be beneficial or potentially exacerbate the situation, thereby minimizing unnecessary drama.

Stepping Out of the Triangle: By consciously recognizing the roles we're playing and assigning to others, we can step out of the drama triangle and take proactive steps, reclaiming our power.

Journal Prompts for Reflection:
1- Why does control feel so necessary?  What is my underlying fear?
2- What am I trying to convince people is true about me and why?
3- How have I benefited from this people pleasing persona? What am I gaining that makes this role so appealing?

By understanding these dynamics and engaging in self-reflection, listeners can gain valuable insights into their own patterns of behavior and work towards healthier, more authentic interactions.

Want to connect with MaryAnn?  Click here: https://linktr.ee/maryannwalker.life
Purchase your copy of The Power of TED: The Empowerment Dynamic : https://amzn.to/3K4NdbZ
Learn more about the drama triangle!
Part 1- Victim/Creator: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2028767/11942482
Part 2- Persecutor/Challenger: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2028767/11978751
Part 3- Rescuer/Coach: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2028767/12018619

Follow Allie on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/writeyourwellness/
Follow Allie's blog & People Pleaser Journal Prompts here: 

Transcript

MaryAnn: 0:17

Well hello and welcome back. I am so excited for today we have Allie Schultz back on the show today she has been with us before but Allie, you can find her on Instagram over at write your wellness I'm going to have her do a plug again at the end. But she is seriously so adorable and so wise, and I absolutely adore her content. So I was so excited at the idea of having her back on the show to collaborate on a few more things. And Allie has some fun ideas to explore around the idea of people pleasing and And control. I know oftentimes then people pleasers feel like everything is out of their control and that life is happening to them. But Allie has a bit different take on that. Will you tell us a little bit about that Allie? Absolutely. I have

Allie: 1:01

been reading a lot of books lately about something called the victim triangle. And it's this idea that we kind of often shift between being the victim to the protector, to the persecutor. And it all boils down to the cyclical nature where you, kind of get your feelings hurt. You give too much ground and then you lash out and, and all of that. And it, it got me thinking to this point that while we all kind of think think that people pleasers are weak to some degree. Culture really drives that in and says like, Oh my goodness, if you give up any ground, if you are considerate of other people, especially too considerate of other people, you must not have a backbone or a spine. But. Is that true? Because I think when you are trying to people please, the main thing you're trying to do is control the situation. You want to control how people see you, think about you, feel about you, interact with you. And by controlling, every single thing that you do to match their expectations, wants and needs, you're actually changing things to be socially in your favor. And that's really powerful to be able to change the whole perspective of, of a human being or even a group of people, that's a lot of power. And so I think that when we are approaching people pleasing, yes, we are giving up a lot of things. We aren't always getting what we want. In fact, we're often not getting what we want, except that social control and that understanding that our relationships are going to look a certain way because we're acting a certain way.

MaryAnn: 2:57

Oh, Allie, I love this already. I love it so much because it has me thinking essentially about covert and overt control. Yeah. Because we have in our mind this image of what does it look like to be in control? And you're exactly right. The people pleasing population, they think, no, everything's out of my control. But at the same time, People pleasers are amazing at controlling other people's perceptions, controlling their emotions, right? They have this belief that, that"I can make them feel a certain way." And there is a lot of control in that. So I love that idea of kind of just flipping in our mind, looking at control in a new way, because it does feel a little bit more empowering once you're able to recognize that, okay, I do have a little bit of control over the situation.

Allie: 3:44

Absolutely. And I think it's a really good litmus test to see where you are in your people pleasing journey. If it starts to feel empowering, you're probably shedding that people pleasing nature a little bit because you're like, wait a minute, I have a skill. I can be socially adept. I can make people agree or, or communicate with me in the ways that I want them to. But if you're really uncomfortable with the idea that you're somebody in control and you're somebody who has power... if right now, like hearing that you're like, Ooh, no, I don't. Don't say that. That probably means that you're really using that people pleasing as a defense mechanism. Because once people start to think that you have power and control, you kind of lose that ground where you're covertly, under, behind the scenes, making things go in your favor. So just like, right now, you know, as people are listening, where are you? Are you like, wow, I do have a skill! Or are you like, no, no, being, being powerful is icky. If being powerful sounds icky. Uh oh.

MaryAnn: 4:53

So tell me a little bit more. You kind of mentioned the victim triangle and I've heard it described before too about the drama triangle. In fact, I have a little series on here, so I'll have to link that in the show notes drama triangle, exploring each of those points. But can you tell our listeners a bit more about how that victim triangle plays into this idea of people pleasing and control.

Allie: 5:13

Yeah, so when you're thinking of the triangle, a lot of people think that the roles are fixed. That one person in a like kind of triangle system, it often is between three people. If there's more people involved, it's like at any given time. time, there's going to be three people attached. Like, think of it as like, you know, electrons bouncing between different atoms. Like there's always going to be three. And we often think of it as fixed. There's going to be one person who's always the victim, one person who jumps in to protect them, and one person who's always aggressive. But that's not actually how it works. When we are getting into conflicts, Most often someone is going to be on that like defensive, like, oh, I'm hurt the most, we need to tend to me, I have been harmed in some way. A lot of times this is what people pleasers are doing because it means somebody is going to come in and protect them, which is controlling that element. And it also means that the person who's persecuting, attacking. being perceived to attack them is going to be called out and shamed, but not by the person who sees themselves as a victim, but by the person who's protecting. But if that protector goes a little too far, if that protector does their job a little too well, suddenly the persecutor is being attacked and they become the victim and who's jumping in to save them? And so those three in that victim triangle are constantly shifting around, trying to manage each other's emotions and, Get that control. Get that upper hand. It's actually in that system a bit more powerful to be the victim because no one is actually going to attack you once you've been labeled the victim. Then it's just the persecutor and the protector going at each other until it shifts. And so people placers try to get into how can I be the victim, but not so much a victim that I'm uncomfortable. I want people to protect me and I want people to come to my defense, but I also don't want them to think that I'm powerful enough to be the persecutor or responsible enough and powerful enough to be the protector. So it's this game where you're trying to situate yourself just enough, just enough in an uncomfortable situation where your problems will take care of themselves. And that is strength and control. If I, if I've ever heard it, like just being able to get other people to step in for you, that is a lot. but having that. Victimization, like realizing, like, this is what I'm doing, because a lot of times people aren't doing this intentionally. I don't want to say that people are coming in here and actively trying to control things in their favor this way. Uh, some people are, but that's very, very, very, very rare. Most people are just like, if I am not the person being protected, I am the person being attacked. that's, you know, that's where it kind of. Gets messy.

MaryAnn: 8:30

Yeah. Yeah. And it's so interesting. Just think about how we each can play into each of those roles, even within the same situation, right? Like when you had mentioned that if the rescuer goes too far and does too good of a job, then now they're the persecutor, right? Where, well, no, I didn't ask you to do this. And, and Hey, like back off a little bit. And, and I think that it's interesting to see through the lens of people pleasing how those roles show up, where we do kind of, we can slip into the, Yeah. But what was me, please show up for me. And then we might show up to help somebody else. And then we're enabling instead of helping. And now we're the one in that persecutor role. and so it's really interesting to see all of the ways that it shows up even within one person. so tell me a bit more about what is the downside to that? And also how can we flip that into something that is more supportive from that negative form of control into something that is a bit more positive?

Allie: 9:23

So I think when it comes to the victim triangle, I think you said it was the drama triangle. It has a lot of names, but the thing about this sort of toxic system is it relies on you playing a part and that's people pleasing to a T, right? Like having that mask on at all times. So the easiest way to kind of break out of that is to stop playing the role that you've been assigned for this act of the play. So if you've been assigned the victim, stepping back and saying, wait a minute, actually I'm empowered. I can set my own boundaries. Thank you protector for coming to my assistance, but I don't need you because I am able to say my feelings and set my standards and walk away. If something is too harmful, I'm able to protect myself. If you've been given the role of the protector, it's maybe stepping back and saying, actually, I think this is a conflict between you and the other person.

MaryAnn: 10:26

I

Allie: 10:26

don't really need to get involved right now. I mean, of course, if you're defending a child or somebody, who really needs help, that's slightly different. But a lot of times you can tell if it's like, actually, this isn't really my business and stay back. And if you've been labeled the persecutor, and oftentimes people get labeled the persecutor, even when they're just expressing themselves, even when they're just like, they're being gentle about it, but they've said something that upset someone. Trying to know what you need to apologize for and know what you don't and being really firm about that. And if you think of all of those three things, all of them are very hard for people pleasers to do because they know that when they play into their part, They get a lot of benefit from that. It might not be the benefit they're consciously thinking of, but subconsciously, the familiarity of that cycle and the comfort of knowing that once you have a cycle going, people come back. So you're keeping the people around you. And even if it's uncomfortable, They're attached. So, thinking of each role independently, you need to figure out, like, how am I playing into it consciously, subconsciously. And when you step back, you'll realize, like, outside of the triangle is genuine human connection. Outside of the triangle is, full support. And love that has meaning and love that isn't transactional, which is gorgeous. We all, we all should be striving for that kind of relationship. You just need to go through the discomfort of saying, I'm not playing this part anymore. And it might take some time because like, of course, the first time you try to step away from the triangle, they're going to be like, Oh, you're the persecutor. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. That's the role you're playing now. But then you have to say, no, I'm, I'm not, I'm, I'm actually not playing any of the three parts. I'm taking the mask off. I'm being myself.

MaryAnn: 12:31

Oh, I love that so much. Yeah. But just acknowledging, okay, right now I am playing a role and identifying where am I at in that triangle and intentionally stepping back because we can't have a victim if there's not a villain. And so if you're choosing into one of those roles and recognizing, Oh, isn't that interesting? In fact, as you were talking, it reminded me of something that happened, I was on a flight recently from New York into Boston and the flight attendant had told somebody,"hey, I'm going to need you to move your bag." And the guy, he didn't want to move his bag. The door wouldn't shut, but he didn't want to move his bag. He wanted somebody else to move their bag. And anyway, it turned into this whole thing. And it was so interesting to see a woman on the flight had decided to make the flight attendant the persecutor or the villain in this story. And so she'd made some comment. I didn't even hear what was said, but the flight attendant, you could see she consciously chose that she wasn't going to step into that role. So she just said, Oh, this doesn't pertain to you. Like she just was like, no, this was just between me and him. And it was so amazing to see in real time, just how comfortable she was saying, no, I'm not going to choose that role. I'm not going to get in a fight with you about it. I'm just letting everybody know that the suitcase needs to be moved. Yeah, it'd be so easy to slip into those roles, but it's so true that if we step into one role, we're automatically assigning other people into these other roles, but it just takes one person being consciously aware of the role that they're playing so that they can actually step out of that and actually address the actual issue instead of making it this, uh, Battle of wills, essentially.

Allie: 14:06

And a moment of applause for like, just think of the discomfort that that flight attendant had to regulate,

MaryAnn: 14:15

right?

Allie: 14:15

Like she's being accused of something. She's on the job before the plane is in the sky, that flight attendant isn't even being paid. Yeah. She's getting yelled at. And I mean, obviously she needs to do her job at the end of the day. And she's just like, no. I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to handle things. the way they need to be handled. I'm gonna be focused, standing on business, as they say.

MaryAnn: 14:44

Yeah. And that actually diffused the tension rather than escalating it. Because we think, no, but I have to defend myself or it's going to get worse. But it was amazing that she just was like, nope, it just is what it is. It's not a problem.

Allie: 14:59

Absolutely. And if you think like all of the, the three players there, obviously the woman who stepped in, she, Was she, like, with the man or was

MaryAnn: 15:09

she just No, she was across the aisle and just was standing up for the guy because he didn't want to move it. Like, she really wasn't a part of the situation at all. She was probably trying to be the rescuer of the man, right? But she had She was like, I know this one. I know the words.

Allie: 15:26

But also, I think, like, people pleasers typically don't see themselves as the protector, even though she was people pleasing. She's trying to please him in that moment. She's trying to comfort him and see, like, we're together here. But people pleasers often see them as the victim in that triangle, and you can't really identify as just one of the three because you're spinning. Yeah. And I think the best way for people pleasers to really initiate that understanding of what roles they're playing and what's happening in their lives specifically is really getting comfortable with the ideas that sometimes they are the persecutor. Sometimes they are the protector, because again, that gives them power and reminds them that there's something they're gaining from this relationship. That man even though he was taking on the victim role, he was gaining the attention of every single person in that plane. He gained strangers sticking up for him. He, got that, like, sense of power and that, is important to recognize, especially in yourself. It's so uncomfortable to recognize it in yourself because it's icky. It's like that shadow self people talk about.

MaryAnn: 16:42

Yeah. So let's explore that a bit because this is something that it's a lot easier to identify in other people. But once we see it in ourselves, it does feel yucky. So how do you navigate that? Once you've recognized it in yourself that, Ooh, I don't like being in that role. I don't like what that's creating for me. So,

Allie: 16:59

If the people at home haven't guessed yet from the handle Write Your Wellness, I am a journaling girly. That's like, the content that I'm creating, and I fully believe that this unpacking is between you and your journal, you and a therapist. Don't, like, if you're just starting this, unraveling, it is so scary and so it's probably best that you do it between people who are not going to judge you.

MaryAnn: 17:29

And

Allie: 17:29

that's really, like, your therapist, your journal, whatever faith You believe in those are like the three places you can start to unpack this. And so, I kind of have like some general prompts that I think people, when they're doing their journaling, I matched with my journal. That was the goal. Um, but there are three basic questions that you need to start asking yourself. And, Before I tell what they are, I just really want to emphasize that this work is uncomfortable. This work is confusing because you're really tackling core beliefs when you're doing this work. Um, I mean, even myself, I find myself getting uncomfortable with it from time to time and having to sit with it a lot. It's something you're going to be doing for a long time. If not, forever. And I know that's a bit daunting, but it's like every single step you're going to get more comfortable, more confident, more self trust. And these are all wonderful goals, but good goals take hard work. So please, if you're going to do this in your journal, set a timer for yourself, really start to show yourself you can set boundaries by setting a boundary for yourself. Like after 20 minutes. No more. 15 minutes, 20 minutes, like don't rant and rant and rant and rant and rant and rant and rant and rant because that's where you're going to start to get a little too messy.

MaryAnn: 19:09

Um,

Allie: 19:10

maybe feeling a little bit righteous or ranty at that point. So just healthy coping mechanisms start. At home. So, that's just the, my little, my little caveat there. So the first thing, that you should probably unpack in your journal is why does control feel so necessary? What is the underlying fear that's keeping you from being fully comfortable just being yourself? Because that's really what it boils down to. You're seeking control because you fear what would happen if you didn't. Like chaos, there's something there that seems stressful. So, unpack why control feels so necessary. The second thing I think people should examine in their journal after they've kind of come to terms with that first question is What are you trying to convince people about yourself? even if you fully believe that this is true about yourself, it could be, but why are you trying to convince people that you're nice or kind? Those are big ones that people are always trying to convince. What is that? Like, what personality are you trying to show? Why is that the personality you're choosing? Unpack that. And then once you've done that level, take it one step further and think about how you've actually benefited, albeit unhealthily, from this people pleasing persona you've created. What are you gaining from it? receiving, that makes people pleasing so tempting. Cause you would not do it if you weren't getting something from it. You wouldn't do it if it wasn't beneficial some way. It might not be the best benefit, but it is beneficial. So trying to come to terms with that. And that last question, there is no way to get through that prompt without really looking at some times where you're like, Hmm, maybe people pleasing, I was being a little selfish there. Maybe. like that man on the plane was certainly holding up people from getting to their destination. or, you know, the person who's always like crying, in the family to like get attention and get people to care for them, they get people to care for them. You, you have to really look at yourself and go, Oh, that's a little ugly, actually, like internally. Ooh, icky. And you'll realize that like letting it go means that you get to be this genuine, less manipulative person and that's nice. We love that. So those are like three places to start. In my own blog, I'm going to be posting a long list of journal prompts that are a little more specific and can help you really like go down different paths and avenues of what those three questions mean and how they can Show up in your life, but it is also just as well to answer those three questions broadly and then look into those more specific questions. Like I said, this is something people need to be doing over and over and over in their journal, cause it's sneaky. That people pleasing bug, it is sneaky.

MaryAnn: 22:30

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I just want to recap some of the things that you said, because it was just all so good. I love that you talked about how, yeah, like this can be a challenging work and it can feel really uncomfortable. I love the questions that you have. And I just want to encourage listeners to that. It's, it's good to think about these things in broad terms. But how beneficial to think about these in specific terms. So when you recognize, okay, in this specific situation, like on the plane or in the grocery store or in that conversation in my marriage, like what happened and what was coming up for me? Um, and such an interesting question just to think on. I just want to kind of talk about those questions a little bit because they're so good. Allie's so good at asking the good questions, but why does control feel so necessary? And what I had noticed for myself and my own journey is oftentimes I would seek to control because I thought if I can just control the situation, then I'll be happy. But then it puts me in a situation where I'm trying to control other people. And guess what? Other people are the one thing you cannot control. I mean, you can't control the weather. You can't control other people. The only thing we can really control is ourselves. And so we create so much resistance for ourselves, thinking it's going to make us happy. But then when the people do what the people are going to do, we're actually creating so much negativity for ourselves and just letting go of, okay, I do have control over the situation, but really it's me. Like if I'm trying to control other people, it's not that I can actually control them. I might be manipulating them. I can have influence on them. I can have these different things, but I can't control them. They're going to do whatever they're going to do. But it is interesting to think on, okay, what's the underlying fear? Cause I think Like I'll just speak for myself. Yeah. The underlying fear for me was, but I might have a negative emotion and it might be hard and difficult for me if something happens, I'm going to have to learn how to regulate my own negative emotions. And that doesn't sound like fun. So I'm going to avoid it at all costs. But what's one of the reasons for you? Like, why has, um, control felt so necessary for you and your journey?

Allie: 24:34

Yeah, I think when I was younger, I really learned this idea that if other people have negative emotions, it means that they get all the attention, all of the focus. Yeah. So my fear was that if I didn't make everything calm and happy and flow as it should, um, parentheses, um, that my needs would never be focused on. So in this really ironic way, I think as a child, I learned actually, if I make everybody have positive emotions, then there's space for me To have conflict, there's space for me to have differing opinions. There's space for me to have a need and have that need be met. So if I wanted to subtly be like, yeah, no, actually, um, I, I really could use money for the school thing, or I could really use like, talking about, you know, something someone said at school that was really hurtful. I needed to first make sure that everybody else was calm so that I could find the victim role, state my piece, get that need addressed. But if someone else was the victim, then what protector or persecutor? I didn't like either of those options. So I think like for me, that was it is that If I didn't, people, please, if I didn't take control of the situation that my needs would be forgotten or I'd be left alone with them. And that was always like, icky, icky, icky. and so yeah, just, uh, I'm going to be honest, like when I get really anxious, when life gets really stressful, I catch myself doing this and it is not easy to get out of it until you address the stressors. Yeah. Um, so that's really when coming into your own and saying like, okay, I have to take care of the stressors actually myself. I don't need to wait for a protector to come in and take them. I can just take care of them. However uncomfortable that is. Then I'll probably feel more relaxed to where I can do even more to get out of the triangle and even more to get out of the triangle. And it just like, it's snowballs, but you're in it. Yeah, getting out of that triangle, like when you are really deep and stressfully in it, getting out of that is just the hardest thing to do.

MaryAnn: 27:24

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing. Cause I think a lot of my listeners are really going to relate to that. And it is really interesting that I do think we get sucked into that triangle. Like you said, In an attempt to get our needs met, right? Think, okay, what do I need to do to make my needs valid enough? What can I do? Like, but what if somebody else has a competing need, then my needs might not get met. Right. And so it is really interesting to think on, huh, just slowing those thoughts down and asking these questions to see what's coming up it can give us just so much valuable information. And now I kind of just want to explore the next question with you too. I'm going to explore all of these because this is so good. Um, so what are you trying to convince people about yourself? What

Allie: 28:07

are you trying to convince

MaryAnn: 28:08

people

Allie: 28:09

about

MaryAnn: 28:09

yourself? Yeah, that is such a great question. Right? It's so interesting. I've noticed in my interactions with other people, it really shifts the energy when it's that convincing energy. Right. When we're trying to convince somebody else, something about us, it does kind of make it that it's a totally different energy than if we're just showing up as ourselves. Right. So for example, if I'm just showing up and I'm saying, you know, and I'm just being an honest person, it's a very different experience than if I'm showing up, trying to convince somebody that I'm honest. Right. As soon as I'm trying to convince somebody, they're going to be like, Wait, but why do I need to be convinced? Right? It's so interesting. Like, isn't that funny? Like, if I could just be solid in myself, that, alright, then it really can shift that energy. But yeah, so for you, like, what comes up for you around trying to convince people around yourself? Like, where has that shown up for you, and what does that look like?

Allie: 29:03

Well, I think that the major thing is that again, none of this is really conscious for people. I don't think people are waking up or like apart from people who have something else going on. I think the majority of people who wake up in the morning don't go today. I'm going to make sure everybody thinks I'm a nice, good person. Yeah. They wake up saying, Oh my gosh, I want to be a nice, good person. So. bad. Oh my goodness. I'm not a nice, good person. The world is going to fall apart. So, okay, what can I do to be a nice, good person? Um, well, other people think these things are nice and good, so I'll do that. And so it's really like internally focused. You're not really thinking about other people, even though the end result of that is, you know, It's trying to convince them, because the main thing you're trying to do is convince yourself that you're a nice and good person. I'm using nice and good here, but I think that's the one that comes up the most. Um, I once had a conversation with a friend and they were really struggling to let go of the term nice. And, that's why I'm using it here. And they kept saying like, no, I'm, I'm a nice person. I'm always nice. I'm I'm always nice. I can't do that big, scary boundary setting thing. Cause I'm a nice person. And if I'm not a nice person, who am I? And that big identity crisis was so painful for them that they would rather let all their hopes and dreams really be kind of squashed. So that they wouldn't have to feel the discomfort of not being seen as nice because then in their mind They're not nice anymore. And that's gone from them. And if you're not nice, you're mean, you're bad, you're icky, and like, just letting that self perception kind of taint your own confidence and self trust is like, psychically painful. Yeah. And so they had to, really work around the idea that, if it's a rule, like, if, if your value. Because they were framing it like, I value being nice. If your value is that prescriptive, like you have to follow it always, every single time. Or you can never be that way.

MaryAnn: 31:31

Ever.

Allie: 31:31

In any situation. That's a rule that's not a value. And so if it feels more like a rule, you're probably trying to convince yourself, and that's trying to convince other people.

MaryAnn: 31:43

Hmm. I like that, that it's a rule, not a value, and really checking in with, what is my value system? Yeah. What is it that I really value in this moment, and I love the reply that you gave to that second question because it kind of reflects back to me my answer would be for your third question about how have I benefited from my people pleasing persona is. Oh, well, it gives me a little bit of external validation. When I'm struggling to have that internal validation for myself, when I'm struggling to recognize, what my own value system is. And maybe if I'm even out of alignment with my value system, because I'm more concerned with the rule at that moment than my value. Um, then yeah, then that's what I'm getting in that moment is I get a little bit of external validation from somebody else, which is very beneficial when you're struggling to have that internal validation, right? About, no, I am a good person. I am a nice person.

Allie: 32:36

Yeah, I guess I think it also boils back to like people think in dichotomies. It's really hard for us dichotomy, like, uh, either or, you know, it's really hard for us to think, you know what, I'm nice sometimes. Sometimes I'm not. I don't really need to build an identity around niceness or kindness or awkwardness or any of it. I can just be a human being. That's very hard to conceptualize. Yes. And when you aren't doing the work to set those labels for yourself, one person deciding that you're not nice means that you're not nice. Period. And you have to swing all the way to the other side of things, and then thinking of yourself as this evil, icky, mean, disgusting person. And that's hard honestly, that last question, I think one of the best benefits of it is getting you more comfortable thinking like, okay, maybe sometimes I'm mean.

MaryAnn: 33:41

Yeah.

Allie: 33:42

Uh, sometimes maybe

MaryAnn: 33:43

I'm grumpy. Yeah. Yeah. Working on that integration of self rather than that judgment of self that, no, I am human. Yeah. Sometimes I lose my temper. Yeah. Sometimes I'm a little bit snippy. Yeah. I am all of those things rather than having to prove to everybody that we're never those things. Cause that's not. True, right? We are all those things. We all behave in those ways at one point or another. So yeah, just coming to really love self and validate self that, yeah, okay, I acted poorly in that situation. And overall, I'm still a pretty nice person. I'm still a good person. Like, yeah, I make mistakes. It's okay.

Allie: 34:20

Just a caveat for people who are just starting to unpack your people pleasing journey. When you say, yeah, sometimes I'm mean, but I'm still mostly a good person. That is not you saying, yes, sometimes I mean, what about it? I'm never going to apologize for nothing. Cause that's who I, that's not what we're doing here. We're saying, yeah, sometimes I mean, and I have the ability to apologize and repair and learn and do better and really change who I am from each instance that I realize I didn't do what I'd like to do. Uh, it's the only way to take accountability. It's actually less, considerate of other people and less accountable for you to say, no, no, I'm never grumpy. I would never be grumpy. I would never do that. That's denial. And that's, what's actually skirting around the issue. So addressing the issue head on is actually the best way to be that kind person you want to be. So,

MaryAnn: 35:28

yeah, I love that. Yeah. Cause you're spot on, but there's so many people that think, but if I'm not a people pleaser, it means I'm a jerk. Yeah. So I have to keep people pleasing because otherwise I'm gonna be a jerk. And it's like, no, you can still just be human. That's an option that's available to you. You can be a human that's learning how to have boundaries. That's learning how to express themselves. That's learning how to create balance in a relationship. Like that's something that's available to you. You're not either a jerk or a people pleaser. There is an in between where you can exist and be content. Um, so yeah, it is interesting how the brain wants to jump to those extremes. You would, uh, you would post

Allie: 36:07

it, I think, on your stories, or maybe it was a reel you posted that, um, it was like people pleasers will say I'm in my villain era, but really they just set a healthy boundary. I think people are so worried about that. I think people think that, like, the moment I drop my people pleasing facade, I'm going to swing so far in the opposite direction. I, I just want everybody to know it is not possible to course correct that hard. Like, very few people have that villain arc moment where they go from like very sweet and genteel to just Absolutely horrific

MaryAnn: 36:45

and it's

Allie: 36:45

going to feel like you're being absolutely horrific because it's just outside of your comfort zone, but I promise it's just one ring outside your comfort zone at a time. Very few people are like all the way to the, to the other end. Yeah.

MaryAnn: 37:00

Yeah. So true. Yep. We're not going to flip like that. And it does feel a little out of character because we've never done it before. It feels uncomfortable mostly because it's new, not because you've done anything wrong. If you've never set a boundary before, of course it's going to feel uncomfortable. But like, yeah, it doesn't mean that you're stepping into your villain era, right? It's just, nope, I'm just learning how to set boundaries and I'm leaning into the discomfort, recognizing I've been uncomfortable with how the people pleasing has been panning out for me. It's also going to be uncomfortable to set a boundary, but it's going to be okay. So tell us a little bit about, we've talked about how people pleasing can be a lot about control. So how can we shift that control to be something that is more productive for us personally?

Allie: 37:44

So I think, like, if you want to talk about productive for you personally, think about it personally. You have this ability to change minds, to change beliefs, to change actions and behaviors. If you're people pleasing, that's your bread and butter. Why not turn that internally and use those same tools you've learned on your own self perception, your own actions, your own you know, just like how you're engaging in the world. Just think about How much more you can do if you think about like, okay, instead of convincing them that I'm nice, I'm gonna convince myself

MaryAnn: 38:30

Mm-hmm,

Allie: 38:31

that I'm nice and I'm gonna be nice to myself to do that. Yeah. I think like a very concrete way to think of it is think about like, what do you. physically do to people please others? Do you compliment them? Do you let them get their way? Like if you're choosing a movie, do you let them get their way? Well, do that for yourself. Do those exact same things for you and show yourself like, Hey, I can compliment myself. I can, pick where we're eating for dinner. I'm going to let myself do that. I'm going to be nice to myself. And you'll start to realize that like, you have a relationship with yourself and you've been really mean in that relationship to prioritize being nice to every other relationship, even with strangers, even with people you don't like.

MaryAnn: 39:23

But once

Allie: 39:23

you start to change and you're nice to yourself, you'll realize, oh, it's possible to like yourself. Yeah. It's, it's truly possible to like yourself. And when you like yourself, you're not going to betray yourself. You would never like if a close friend, you would never throw them under the bus so a stranger could feel more comfortable. So start doing that for you, make it real and concrete the ways that you're going to treat yourself differently and be consistent with that. And over time you'll start to see like, Oh, I'm cool. I'm worthy of showing who this is out there and people will react positively to it because I'm finally reacting

MaryAnn: 40:09

positively to it. Yeah. Yeah, I love that so much because you're exactly right that the People Pleasers, they have a very easy time showing up as everybody else's best friend. But thinking of it in terms of that victim triangle, they show up as the rescuer for other people, but they're showing up as the villain or the persecutor for themselves. And recognizing what role we're playing in each of those relationships, because that's honestly something I coach on so often is, but what would it look like if you were your own best friend? Would you talk to your best friend that way? If you're, if your best friend was going through this, would you be shaming them and blaming them and telling them, Oh, you're, you're such a fool. I can't believe you did that thing. Or would you be telling them, Hey, you know what? I get it. I get it. I can understand why you did that. And I love you anyway. And here's how we can work together to work through this. Like we would approach it so much differently for other people than we do for ourselves, but really flipping that to, okay, I'm going to show up for myself in these positive ways. I love that so much.

Allie: 41:11

Just to make it, even extra concrete for people. I personally believe that, advice is not good if you can't, actually show people what it looks like, right? Just say, be kind to yourself. It's so vague. So I want to show, a little exercise that I've done. been doing. Um, so I have like my to do list for the week here. One section of this, I just call fortitude and things in the fortitude section are things that are just for me. They don't benefit anybody else. They are not productive. So they're not going to like, make me better in my career, make me healthier, make me, Anything like that. It's just for me, just for my own curiosity and fun. There is nothing beyond just the benefit of establishing that relationship with myself. Right now, it is filled with Claymore Stardew Valley. Um, that, and then I want to finish that, the documentary Pez outlaw. But yeah, those things... I really try to make an effort in my weeks to fill that section out completely and show myself, yeah, I, you know, I have a social section on my to do list. That's like, I'm going to show up for my friends this way. I'm going to have these social events this week. And then I have my fortitude section, which is I'm going to show up for myself this week. Yeah. And if you start to notice, that you are leaning into your career tasks, your social tasks, a lot more than those fortitude tasks, it's diagnostic. It's not to shame you, but it is for you to say, I need to shift my energy. I need to shift my focus. I need to build a little bit more for myself. It's such a good test to see where you're at in terms of taking care of your relationship with yourself.

MaryAnn: 43:01

Yeah. I love that so much. And I'm going to be adding a fortitude section in my planner. I love that so much. As you guys can see, Allie just has so many great ideas. And the day that this episode is dropping, then Allie's going to be putting something out into the world. Do you want to tell us a bit about that? Yeah. So,

Allie: 43:17

um, beyond, Instagram and Pinterest, where I am at write your wellness. I also have a blog, write your wellness. com and I'm going to be posting, more of my thoughts on this topic about the shadow side of people pleasing and a lot of journal prompts that you can use to unpack each of these three questions in a lot more detail, talking about the angles of family, friends, work, just getting into the nitty gritty of every area. So you can start to see how it might apply broadly. so work from top down or bottom up whatever way works for you. this blog post is going to have all of that. And I really hope that it can kind of be in conversation with what we've been talking about today. Just because I think that a journal, again, is the perfect place to unpack this for the first time. I am talking to you about this and it's, I think, the first time I've really talked about this idea publicly in the four years that I've been working on unpacking this idea personally. So it takes a minute. Yeah. And I'm hoping that these journal prompts will be able to carry you through your own, like, four, five, ten, however many year journey it takes. Um, or even just return to them and reflect so you can see the difference from where you started and where you are now. Um, so yeah, that will be dropping, the same day as this episode, which is May

MaryAnn: 44:50

20th. Awesome. Yeah, so I'll be posting all of Allie's contact information for her Instagram and Pinterest. as well as a link to her blog in the show notes. And if you want to kind of self reflect a little bit more on how these different parts of the victim triangle or the drama triangle are showing up for you, I'll also link those episodes. Cause yeah, it's a lifelong journey. And I like how you said to reflect back on them, even just to track your progress, right? Like I noticed for myself, sometimes I'll have like Facebook memories pop up and I think, Oh my gosh, I am so embarrassed about my past self. And I have an opportunity to delete it so I never have to see those memories again, or to appreciate how far I've come and have a bit more empathy for people in that same situation. And so I love that idea of just tracking your growth, tracking your progress, being okay with being human, and recognizing that we all have all of those parts of self. I, I just love everything you're putting out there, Allie. Do you have any other words of wisdom you'd like to share with us in closing? I just, uh, the

Allie: 45:52

last thing I want to say is that if this process is making you feel uncomfortable then you're doing it right. So, remember set limits, set timers, do not try to focus on this topic for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours at a time. Because it's really about doing it a little every day rather than doing it all at once. Yeah. marathon, not a sprint.

MaryAnn: 46:16

Yes. I love it so much. Well, thank you so much for being here, Allie. And it was so great to see you again. And yes, everybody go and check out all of her work. She's just super fun to follow. So if you like having fun content showing up in your feed, make sure that you're following Allie. She's got some great stuff.

Allie: 46:31

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. It's been lovely to be here again. I. I just love talking with you. Oh, the feeling is mutual.

MaryAnn: 46:40

Anyway, well have a great week everybody and we'll talk soon. Bye now. Bye.