Building Healthy Relationships as a Highly Sensitive Person with Kellyn Legath

Today we explore how to build healthy relationships as a highly sensitive person. Join me and fellow coach, Kellyn Legath, as we explore both the challenges and the strengths of building relationships for this population.

Main ideas:
Discovery of Sensitivity: When you're a highly sensitive person, personal emotional regulation is key when it come to creating healthy and balanced relationships. 

Understanding Emotions: HSPs are highly attuned to subtle cues like micro-expressions and tone, which helps in understanding others' emotions but may lead to over-personalization.

Sensitivity as Strength: Embracing sensitivity as a gift enhances relationships; self-awareness helps HSPs manage emotions without self-judgment.

Societal Impact: HSPs often face stigma around their emotions, particularly in a society that misconstrues sensitivity as weakness. Sensitivity isn't a weakness... it's a super power! 

Self-Worth and Validation: HSPs should focus on maintaining self-worth independent of others' responses and seek authenticity over external validation.

Self-Care Practices: Regular self-care routines and exploration of personal interests help HSPs reconnect with themselves and prioritize their needs.

Boundaries and Empowerment: Establishing clear boundaries teaches others how to treat HSPs, promoting healthier relationships and reducing the attraction to negative individuals.

Your emotions are your responsibility. While others’ emotions can impact you, it’s your thoughts and reactions that determine how much they affect you. By setting boundaries, processing emotions in your body, and separating your feelings from those of others, you can create more connection and belonging in your relationships.

If you found this episode helpful, consider working with me  one-on-one! I am currently offering 6 week packages to support you, the highly sensitive. I currently have a waitlist for new clients, so click the link below to be next in line!

Apply to work with me: https://maryannwalker.life/contact-me
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Connect with Kellyn:
https://www.instagram.com/daydreamercoaching/
https://www.daydreamercoaching.com

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Transcript

0:17

Hello, I'm so excited. Today I'm joined by MaryAnn Walker. She is a coach for empaths and highly sensitive people. MaryAnn, welcome. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to have you. So I want to ask you just, I think it will give people a chance to get to know you in general, because I think that's a really important part of all of this. What drew you to wanting to work with highly sensitive people? Mostly deciding that I was one, figuring out that I was one and I really needed help. I think that it's a very unique experience when you are more highly aware to everything that's going on around you, right? So highly sensitive people, they're highly sensitive to other people's facial expressions, their micro expressions, their tone of voice, their body language. It's a different experience when you are highly sensitive to these other things. And a lot of being highly sensitive to other people's things, it's a total superpower because it's really A gift when it comes to figuring out how it is that other people are feeling. But one of the downsides to being a highly sensitive person is yes, I can identify, like, for example, let's say Kellyn's mad, and I might be able to see from her face and her body language and identify that correctly. But the downside to being highly sensitive is we oftentimes interpret it to mean that I am the reason for it. I'm the reason why she's mad. I am the reason why she's upset. And so it's a lot of figuring out how to differentiate self and do your own emotional processing and just allow everybody to do what they're going to do and stand in your own power. And it was a wild ride for me and coaching was extremely helpful. I didn't even know how much That was impacting me until I started coaching. And then I was like, okay, yeah, more people need to learn how to do this. They need these tools. Oh, you know what? The tools part of it all. And I'm sure we'll get into this more, but having the tools to just move through your life experience. It's something that in my life, I just felt like was. So valuable. I went through so much of my life feeling like I just don't have the tools. I don't feel like I'm crazy. I'm like, you know, I've had depression and anxiety for so long. And I just was like, yeah, I get that I'm struggling in these areas, but I always felt like the tools were the things that were missing. It was almost like, I didn't know how to nurture myself. Yeah. The experience that you had. Yeah. and when you're unable to nurture yourself. It means you're essentially putting that responsibility on everybody outside of you. Right. But it's so empowering to realize, Oh, I can self regulate. Oh, I can do this for me. This can be a gift that I can do for me that can actually benefit not only me, but it can also help to make my relationships more sustainable because I'm able to do that for myself. Yeah. And what was it that you, like the light bulb went off for you that you were like, Oh, I'm a highly sensitive person. I think it was honestly like, I don't know if there was one big event, but it was kind of little things along the way. And it was me just kind of recognizing, um, how much I was personalizing everybody else's experience, how much I really was kind of walking on eggshells. Thinking that I was the problem, that I was the reason why other people were having a hard time. And it kind of came on slowly. The self realization, it really did take the coaching and essentially separating out the circumstances from the thoughts. That alone was huge for me. Because I was able to see, oh, okay, the circumstance is that person made a face. My thought is, oh, they made a face because they're upset with me when really they might have smelled something stinky, or they might have been remembering something that happened at work that day, or there could be any number of reasons why they're having that face. But just separating out the circumstances from the thoughts was hugely impactful for me. Oh my gosh. I have that same experience because like you said, when you're highly sensitive, you're so attuned to the slightest shift in energy or shift facial expression or whatever it is. So neutralize. I always think of it as neutralizing when I'm coaching also being like, okay, so what, what was the fact here? What really happened? And it's like, oh, they scrunched their nose. Okay, giving that empowering place of being like, now let's watch where your brain is going and what it's observing from this experience. And then what's the reality? It's like they scrunched their nose. Right. That brain mapping. Right. And sometimes it's almost laughable when you're like, Oh, well, they scrunched their nose. That's it. When it's like, Hey, but then recognizing, this is the tiny little thing that happened. And here's the pages and pages of story that we made it mean. And it's basically just bringing things into a more proportionate. Lens. Right. Okay. This happened. This is what I made it mean, but a doesn't always equal B. It doesn't mean that those are necessarily on the same wavelength. And I could ask questions and see if I could get more information, but them scrunching their nose when that's the only fact that you know, and then you're writing this whole story boy and HSPs, that's the other word for highly sensitive people as HSPs, but they're very good story writers. They're probably the best storytellers ever. I mean, that makes sense. That's helpful. Yeah. That makes sense for me. In preparing for this, I did some research and it blows my mind that unlike ADD and anxiety, an HSP isn't something that you're diagnosed with. It's not considered a mental health disorder and there's really no official way to diagnose it. When I read that, I was like, Yeah, this makes sense because I didn't, you know, I've been in and out of therapy since I was young, probably high school and not once did anyone ever say, Hey, it seems like you might be highly sensitive. So that's just mind blowing to me. Yeah. And like the stereotypes around, what does that mean to be highly sensitive? Right? Because it just is, it's just a way to describe your experience, but then also noticing, do I have some judgments around that? Does the world have some judgments around that? And how is it that I define sensitivity? Am I viewing it as a superpower that this is such a great way that I gain information from the world using my five senses to determine safety and to determine how I want to relate with the world, or am I viewing this as a self judgment? That, well, I'm too sensitive. I'm too emotional and just noticing that, right. How it comes up for you. I'm so glad you're bringing this up because I think of sensitivity and probably how that would have affected me in ninth grade. If, if someone diagnosed me and said, Oh, you're sensitive. And, and what that meant about who I was. And when we talk about society, right. Emotions are often seen as bad. Oh, you're so emotional, especially as a woman, right? It's like, Oh, that woman, she's so emotional. And that means she's weak. Um, you know, we, especially through coach training, I've totally changed the way I view emotions. And I feel like any expression of emotion is such a beautiful and empowering and powerful thing, but that's not the reality of how most people think about emotions. Especially sensitive that word sensitive to me for so many people it translates to weak and now I'm thinking of it in the lens of what about for men, what about highly sensitive men, you know, how that affects them because, oh my gosh, men need to be tough all the time and they can't show emotion or they're weak or they're, you know, XYZ. Society's view on all of this, I think really affects how we relate. And I love that you're calling it a superpower. I can feel as you're saying it, I can feel myself feeling really excited because I'm like, oh, it's such a beautiful thing. To think of it in that way of like, great, I have these five senses that are totally in tune, and that's such an awesome thing. Yeah. But it might be seen as a really negative. Negative thing. And the way that it really becomes a superpower is when we're able to combine our sensitivity with our own emotional intelligence or our own emotional regulation. Because when we are able to self regulate, boy, everything just lights up, right? There is so much strength in being sensitive to other people. And like you said, it can be a unique challenge for people. We tend to think that a woman is overly emotional or, Oh, well, it must be that time of the month. We, we think the emotion is irrational. But that's not the case. And in fact, all of us feel our feelings, right? And as you talked about with, uh, coach school, we learned that our emotions are what drives our actions. It's just, if we're aware of them or not, everybody has feelings, right? Some are more in tune with them and others, and they're more likely to express them in different ways. And we tend to shame it when someone expresses those emotions differently. But that doesn't mean that it's wrong. It doesn't mean that it's bad. It's just that they experience emotions differently. And I think that that's why a lot of HSPs kind of get a bit of a bad rap because they express their emotions a bit differently than, you know, cognitive empathizers or people that are very cerebral and in their head and very much by the facts, but really their strengths and weaknesses and all of those areas. And it's just learning how to come together and recognize that, okay, we just have different operating systems and let's learn how we can communicate in this relationship. I love that. Do you feel like there is a distinction between being a quote unquote emotional person versus being a highly sensitive person? And, and kind of what, what does that look like? Yeah, it's kind of an interesting question, right? Because I think that highly sensitive people, um, I don't know. I don't know if I would say they're necessarily more emotional, but they might just be more emotionally aware. I think that everybody feels all of their feelings, but a lot of people, they tend to summarize their feelings as either sad, mad, or glad. They don't have the depth and breadth of I'm feeling insecure. I'm feeling some envy here. You know, it's actually like putting the names on them. And in fact, a lot of HSPs then. They might also be a little bit emotionally immature where they just know this doesn't feel good. And that's might be all that they know and understand is I'm feeling really uncomfortable right now. But what they don't know and recognize is that they're feeling uncomfortable because they're so sensitive to the setting that it's going to be a very different experience for them. If they're walking into a room and they can tell that somebody's been fighting in there, it's going to have a different impact on them than somebody who is less sensitive. And they'll just be like, okay, whatever. Like I can just dismiss this. That, that, whatever, it's just a little lover's quarrel and they can dismiss it. Whereas the HSP is going to be like, but I have to be in the same room now. And this is so uncomfortable. That's so good. Cause I was going to say, what are the things that stand out for like the experience that an HSP would have? And I think that you just touched on one, but, but as you're going through everyday life, what are the things that sort of stand out that you're like? Okay. This is an HSP experience. Well, it can show up in a lot of different ways. It's, it's basically like your senses, your five senses are kind of just on hyper alert and essentially my belief is it's, it's assessing safety and security. So you might be hypersensitive to sounds. And loud noises, you might, you might jolt, you might be hypersensitive to facial expressions and you might be hypersensitive to tones at the tone of voice or to the volume and, and different things. And so it's just noting like, okay, this is my experience is these senses or kind of, it's like my Spidey sense. Right. They're letting me know they're assessing the situation to see, am I safe? What's going on for me? And in fact, a lot of people, they develop their sensitivity because they've had experiences where they didn't feel safe. It was necessary for them to use other senses versus just their ears to assess safety. And so if they were maybe in a relationship where the person they were engaging with, they were saying one thing, but acting in a different way. They couldn't trust the words, so they were kind of pushed to, well, now I have to learn how to navigate all of these other things so that I can actually know if I'm safe. That makes so much sense. And when you said spidey senses, I was laughing because I'm like, that's exactly how I think of it. And the way you're describing it is so I'm like, that's what I'm picturing in my mind. Right. These kind of like spidey senses are tingling where for most people, they can just like, you know, go about their day, but the volume is sort of turned up for highly sensitive people. Is that, is that accurate? Yeah. Yeah. And it's basically just kind of like putting out that Spidey sense where, you know, when, when, when Spider Man senses go off, he's saying something is not right. And it is just a safety mechanism. And it's a beautiful gift because we are able to keep ourselves safe. It's just coming to terms with recognizing, okay, so am I assessing the threat properly? Right, right. Yes, I'm very sensitive to this, but I'm saying that right now that this is what the current threat is. I'm feeling my fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response coming up. And how is it that it's showing up for me? In fact, a lot of highly sensitive people, I find their stress response more than likely. It's either freeze Or fawn. And so the freezing is I'm just going to shut down because I don't know what to do. I'm too scared. And the fawning is essentially trying to control other people, right? So the funding is the people pleasing it's saying, well, I can just make them happy. Then it will be okay. And so it's just noticing what is showing up for me. Am I in fight, flight, freezer, fawn? How can I calm myself? How can I nurture myself so that I can step out of that so that I'm not acting or reacting emotionally? This is my light bulb just went off in my head, right? Because like I said, I didn't know I wasn't a highly sensitive person until much later in life, but that makes sense. The, the shutdown, I think a lot of my experience was I was taking naps a lot. I was so exhausted by interactions that I was having. And I think I was, I was seen from the outside as being introverted. But it was sort of like, I was so emotionally overwhelmed by the experiences that I was having so often, you know, I would come home from school and I would take a nap, or I would come home years later, I would come home from work and I'd be like, I gotta take a nap and I'd be so tired. So do you, do you think that highly sensitive people tend to sort of, if they don't have the tools, feel more exhausted or drained by interactions with other people? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And being highly sensitive, a lot of highly sensitive people are also empaths. So they're literally feeling everything. And when you're feeling things so deeply, you are going to show up a bit differently. And so, yeah, you are probably going to experience a bit more fatigue, especially if you've experienced a very heightened experience, then you might find yourself feeling more drained, but even if you're just now learning how to navigate it, like I remember when I first started learning about it and, and I started out as a highly sensitive person and then I started having Truly empathic experiences. And I realized, Oh my goodness, I am so tired all the time. Even going to the grocery store was completely draining for me because I was so sensitive to everybody else's experiences around me. And so, yeah, having that self compassion and that self love that, okay, I just need to rest a little bit more. Um, and I find too, especially if you have. Had a tendency to either freeze or fawn. You are going to need more time to recover to after a conflict or after there's like an, an end of a relationship, or once you've gotten yourself to safety, it's like your nervous system goes, Oh, finally, right? Because your spidey sense is assessing that safety. So once you get to a safe place, it totally makes sense that your whole body, your whole nervous system is just going to go, Oh, Okay. Now I'm finally safe. I can finally relax. Right. Oh, that makes so much sense. You're so indescriptive in how you are expressing this. You're obviously such an expert here. So I can just, I feel it in myself, that fawn experience. And I think the fawn is one that people don't tune into as much, you know, it's always fight or flight and the fawning you're Moving forward in a way that's like also exhausting because I think a lot of times it becomes it's not really authentic you it's sort of like how can I please this other person or how can I make sure that they're okay and, and you're again separating from your experience. So I think let's, let's move into talking about like how being a highly sensitive person affects relationships, even, even the relationships with people that we're meeting in the grocery store, like you mentioned, we have so many different relationships. We're constantly moving throughout our day, talking to coworkers and family and friends and dating. And so how are highly sensitive people affected or how are their relationships affected? Yeah, that is such a great question because it really does have significant impact on relationships, especially because if we all are at different places and engage with the world differently emotionally, right through our own emotional lens, when there's gaps in how we relate, a lot of things, it's just a miscommunication, right? We don't understand how the other person relates. And so it can be a challenge if you're a highly sensitive person in relationship with somebody who isn't, they might just not understand. And when they don't understand, that's when you're going to be receiving the judgment that Of you're too emotional. You're too much. You're too this and that, right. Which then is going to create more insecurity, which leads to the fawning and the people pleasing. But then, like you said, then we're not showing up authentically. We're showing up masked. We're showing up as the false self. And it usually comes through that sense of wanting to create safety and security for self. But we're now pleasing the other person and making their wants, desires, and wishes more important and more valid than our own. But then that's us creating essentially these imbalanced relationships. Right. And so it's all about coming to that place where you can show up more authentically, where you can stand in your own power and get to that place where you're able to communicate more effectively, even when somebody speaks a different emotional language than you. To see, okay, so can we really gauge compatibility here? And how can we create balance? I think you're touching on something so important when you said how another person relates or like how they're viewing you and communication is so important in all of this, but you're not going to be able to communicate what's going on if you're not aware. And you and I are always talking about awareness, but. That awareness piece of understanding the way you're showing up and why you're showing up. I feel like without it, it made it very, at least for me, it made it very hard for me to express my experience. I remember reading the highly sensitive person, or I listened to it on audio book actually by Elaine Aaron. And I remember listening to it on audio book. And I actually, there were so many things that I was like, yep, this is me. This is me. I actually couldn't listen to it because I felt like I had to take notes. Like I had to, which like highly sensitive person, I'm outing myself, but I'm like, I was so overwhelmed because I was like, Oh my God, this is me. And I want to take a note of that. And I want to understand it. So I feel like a huge part of this is first a highly sensitive person recognizing that this is who they are and how it's showing up in their lives. Because without that, it must make it very difficult to kind of communicate, like. Hey, this is how I'm feeling. And then the other person's perceiving you. And then, like you said, you become a people pleaser and, and you're putting the other person first. Yeah. So I just want to kind of expand on a few things to bring a little bit more clarity here and touch on what you exactly said, which is that we're very good at tuning in to other people and understanding them so that we can better relate to them. But it's really important to take the time to better understand. Yourself and how you relate to the world. So I kind of just want to share with you like the three different kinds of empathy and understanding, because just having words to put around, it can be so helpful when it comes to communicating your experience. Okay. So first I want to talk a little bit about cognitive empathizers. So these are the people that are very much in their head. They're very logical and that's how they relate to the world is essentially thinking through, okay, well, if I walked a mile in that person's shoes, how would I show up? And so they. Are very logical and think through things about, okay, this is how I would show up. And the great news about like cognitive empathizers is they're very good at asking questions so that they can have that logical understanding. But the downside to the cognitive empathizers is if somebody doesn't show up in the way that they have delineated is the perfect way to show up in the situation, then they're not going to understand that other person's experience. Right. So it's kind of pros and cons to each level. So then there's a highly sensitive people where they are using all of their senses. To assess the whole situation. And as I said earlier, they're very good at identifying the emotion that the other person is experiencing. But the downside of being highly sensitive is overowning that you were the problem that you were the one to blame for the other person's emotional experience. And then as we continue on this empathy scale, then there's the true empath. And that can be a huge superpower when it comes to knowing what it is the other person needs and how to fulfill their needs. But it can become problematic in the sense that it's really hard for them to differentiate self, to add just as much validity to their own experience as they are to other peoples. And so knowing what the strengths and the weaknesses are of each kind of empathy, no matter where you're at on this list. Scale and just recognizing like, Oh, okay. This is how that person relates can be very helpful because the truth is you just might have to be a little bit more clear and what it is that you're needing. So being willing to put yourself out there and say, you know what? I think I'm not feeling heard right now, but you asking three clarifying questions right now would really help me to feel seen and heard, or, Hey, you know what, I could really just use a hug right now. Can you just hold me? For like 10 seconds, that would be great, but being willing to identify your need for yourself. And like you said, coming to know you and tune into you and invest some energy into that self development, at least as much as you're investing into coming to better understand other people can really give your relationships a boost. Wow. This breakdown is so important. I'm going to have to go back and listen through this. And I think that I love that you're putting it on a scale. I think that's so that helps with the awareness piece. I think that this portion of self, right? Like when we lose the self, how detrimental it can be to your personal growth to sort of put other people first and not identify your core needs. I remember a time in my life when I I actually wrote in my notes app what I know about me because I had been so far from myself and tuning into myself. I was so in tune to the experiences around me that I was like, you know what? I need to write this down because I feel like I'm lost. If someone was like, Oh, tell me about you. I would be like, I don't know. I know nothing, which I know wasn't true. Right. That's what my brain was telling me. My brain was like, Yeah, you're undefined. You're very undefined. But then when I started to kind of taking note of it and started being like, this is who I am. These are the things that I show up and this is how I show up. And this is what it looks like for me. I started to be like, okay, I started to develop that sense of self. And that, that small action. Started getting me on the path to it. And what you said about asking questions and that sort of curiosity, I think that's when I started my journey of like really watching myself, watching how I was showing up and watching how things affected me and really learning about myself, I'm interested to what. How this affects self worth, because I think I've struggled with that for such a long time and really had to build that. And I talk a lot on my page about self confidence and how to build self confidence. But do you feel like people that are highly sensitive struggle in that area? Oh, absolutely. I think that it's very easy for highly sensitive people to make their worth conditional upon how those around them show up. And so it can be very confusing. Because we might actually be showing up really well, but they're having their own emotional experience and they're not showing up well, but we're choosing to make that mean that it's because we didn't do a good job communicating, or it's because we said the wrong word. And they might even be telling us that if they're a very emotionally immature person, they might be saying, you make me so angry. It's like, I just was trying to tell you how I feel, but around that differentiating of self, you just reminded me of it where there was a time in my life where I recognized I really had lost myself. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know what I liked. I recognized that I was so highly sensitive to everybody else's needs that I had neglected my own. And so I decided that I was going to take myself on a getaway. And so I went and I stayed at a cabin in the woods by a lake for three days and two nights, all by myself. And this pushed me, first of all, I wanted it to be by myself because I knew if anybody else was with me, I would be accommodating of them. And I wouldn't know what I needed. And I really needed a dedicated space to practice tuning into my needs. I hadn't created that for myself. That, I'm going to pause you for a second because that is so important. I think that aspect of like, you know, it'd be lovely to like take a little vacation and bring a friend, but you're so tuned in to the other person that even having one person who you love and adore and have a really good, healthy relationship with even that can feel draining and pull your attention away from yourself. I think when you're in the expression of what you're saying. So that's, that's so real. And I think people will relate to that if they're highly sensitive of, of being like, Oh my gosh, I can't even, I think I feel it often when I'm hiking, I'm like, Oh, I would love to bring someone along. But then I'm like, but then I want to think about, do they have to leave at this time? Or do they want to go this far? Like you're constantly. Hold away. Yeah. It's really. Yeah. And it was so impactful for me to just create that dedicated space. And it was a challenge for me, first of all, to tell my friends I'm going and you can't come with me and then to let them know, Hey, and I'm not going to have a phone signal. So I'm just going to be off the grid. But then I had to decide for me, I had to decide, okay, well I'm going to meal prep. What do I want to eat? I decided to just go vegan my whole time out there and have my premade meals. And I wanted to just nurture. Body, mind, and spirit, right? So I had my prepackaged vegan meals and I decided what I wanted to wear and were very conscientious about how I wanted to move and where I wanted to hike and what I might need. I brought my art supplies, my ukulele. I even had a dedicated playlist to help me with emotional processing. It was just really a. Gift to myself. And I know not everybody can do that. I learned from that experience, how important it is to incorporate that into my day to day life, to create little pockets where I can honor my needs. Not get so lost in what it is that everybody else needs. Oh my gosh, what a gift. I, I like you said. Of course not everybody can do that, but if you can find a way to kind of create that experience for yourself, whether it's just spending a day at a park alone or finding a pocket where you can say, I'm gonna dedicate this time to me know. Mm-Hmm. I'm constantly jour journaling and encouraging my clients to journal and to be. Ask yourself a lot of questions. It's really like taking yourself on a date in the most beautiful way to be like, what do I like? What do I want my perfect day to be? What do I want my life to look like? It's sort of a, a bit of an imaginative experience, which I think is so beautiful. And what I know about the brain is that, Imagination takes work. It's really easy for the brain. And we've learned this in coach training about the brain loves to look to the past for information, which means it doesn't have to work hard. It knows it's in the memory bank already. And to be able to sort of use your map, tap into your imagination and be like, what do I want this to look like? And what do I know about myself? And. What's disconnected from who I think I truly am and who I want to be. And that's such a, like you said, such a gift to yourself. Yeah. And to go back to your original question, we are so highly sensitive to other people. It's easy to make our worth conditional upon how they're showing up. But when you're able to love yourself, to take yourself on a date, to ask yourself, Hey, if I were my own best friend, how would I show up for myself right now? And really getting to know yourself and then it shifts that focus right where you're then able to assess your own worth, depending on how much you love yourself and how you are showing up in the world. Because when we make our worth conditional upon how other people show up, we're always going to be disappointed. That's exhausting to be responsible for that. When you can recognize, Oh, you know what, I showed up well. And because I made it measurable for myself of how I want to show up in this situation, then they can have their emotional reaction to it. And that's okay, because I know within myself that I showed up well, that I showed up in my own integrity, that I was thoughtful and I was kind and clear in my communication. I went through the three bullet points I wanted to go through. So I've checked it off and made it measurable for myself. And then once you feel solid in yourself that, yeah, I did a good job. Then it makes it a lot easier to process the emotions that come up for you. And somebody else has an emotional reaction. Oh my God. Just so good. I'm wondering, how do you identify when you're in that experience? Like what's true to you, right? Because I think that's, I think, I see so often people off on TikTok or, or on Reels saying, I don't even know who I am. I don't have any interests. I don't know what I want. I don't, and that can be really debilitating. Mm hmm. And I think so many people are afraid of being like, this is, I think this is what I'm interested in. It feels just like, I don't know. And that's sort of like a stopping point. Yeah. I think that's a great question. Like it takes practice and it takes creativity, like you said, right. To figure out what's true for you. And my encouragement is just try it on and see. Just see if you like it, be willing to try something new and be open to the possibility that it might be something that you like. I remember I, I I'm totally that person that buys all of the fun things that pop up on my social media feed. So I buy all of the crazy things and, and sometimes then I try them out and I love them and sometimes I try them out and I like, think it's fun for a week and then I'm done, right? Like that little, uh, hula hoop thingy that had the weighted hula hoop and the I've totally bought all of those things. And it's funny that sometimes I've received some judgments from some friends where they're like, yeah, you're just such a sucker. You're so gullible and you buy everything. And I'm like, no, I'm not going to believe that story. My story is I learned what I like through the doing. And so I can watch and see if somebody else likes this thing. But until I try that thing, I'm not going to know if it's a good fit for me or not. And just being okay with, yeah, I'm going to try that thing and maybe I'll like it and maybe I won't either way, I'm going to love myself enough to find out it's a, it's a journey of self discovery. Yeah, it is being okay with sort of my mom always says this, um, you know, whatever direction you go in, it's going to lead you to somewhere, whether it's the direction you think or it's, you know, you're going to veer off into somewhere else. Like, it's about taking action. It's about taking those steps. Just forward and into discovery to be like, I have an inkling that I'm sort of into this thing. So can I explore it? And then if I'm bad at it, or if I don't like it, can I not beat myself up and move into another direction? I think so often it feels like, Oh God, if I do this thing that I think I like, and then I don't like it, then I'm really screwed. You know, like, Oh God, then I really have no sense of self. And that's like really scary. That's I love that you're saying it from a place of. love coming from a place of love and, and being like, I love myself enough to, to discover this and be willing to discover it for myself. Yeah. Yeah. There's this philosophical question that the girlfriend of mine always entertain and ask each other whenever we're like at a crossroads. But the question is what if the path that you're on leads you to where you were going? And I love that because it really has me thinking like, okay, so if I stay on this path, then What is it creating for me? Sometimes we think we have to stay on the path because it's going to make other people happy, but we might find as we continue on that path that, okay, well, I'm not showing up authentically. I'm being highly accommodating of other people. So of course they want me on this path, but is this actually fulfilling for me? And then making that course correction. Okay. What if. I tried this crossroads. What if I went over this way? Then what might that lead to? But there's so many paths up the mountain and you can hop from trail to trail. You totally have permission to do that and to just explore it, be a little explorer and figure out what it is that you like. And, and do I like where this path is leading or do I want to try something new? I love that analogy that, that you're still going up the mountain, right? At the end of the day, you're still going up the mountain. And it's just, you're just hopping from trail to trail. And at the end of the day, it's, it's always going to get you to where you're going and love that so much. Let's talk deeper in, I want to really get into how being an HSP affects your relationships. And you've touched on so many good things already, but. Um, through the lens of dating, I think that's a, that's a hot ticket that I'm sure I have a lot to say about, but, but being in HSP, um, and I'm, I'm all, I'm very cautious about saying that. People labeling. Cause I, I, I mentioned also that like, we're intellectualizing so much information all the time. We are getting more information than we ever have before. Right. And so often I think with dating and relationships, people want to understand themselves and why they're a lot of times suffering in relationships and dating. So they sort of cling to these things like, Oh, attachment style. Like I'm a anxiously attached person or I'm avoidant. Mm hmm. So I'm, I'm wondering how being in HSP affects dating and, and when I say dating, I, I want to be clear that I'm talking about like early stage of dating, putting yourself out there and, and going on dates for the first time. Um, how, how are they affected there? Yeah. So let's kind of talk about it through the lens of the unhealthy HSP and then the healthy HSP. Right. So that all comes about just knowing that, okay, I might tend to be triggered a little bit more easily when it comes to things that are going to cause me to feel insecure. Right. So just noting when you are going into a dating relationship to make sure that when you were dating that you're looking for people that you think would be a good match for you instead of looking for, how can I be a good match for this person to get the external validation? That's a huge thing. Yes, let's talk about that because I was actually on another podcast and we were talking about that exact thing about going into any dating experience and being like, Oh, how can I make them like me? Right? How can I be what they need? Do I need to be prettier? Do I need to be funnier? Do I need to be more sexy? Do I need to do XYZ? And it, it so takes away from your experience and then you're again showing up so inauthentically, right? You're showing up for the other. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really takes some practice and some self awareness to know when you're doing that, because in the moment it feels like, no, I really like this person. So I want them to really like me too. Right. But we might not see it in the moment that maybe we're not quite showing up authentically or maybe we're choosing to see certain qualities that they have and ignoring some red flags because our top priority is finding that reassurance for ourselves. Absolutely. Right. Okay. That's really important. That priority of finding reassurance. Like, well, if they like me, then all that stuff that I believed about myself can't be true, right? If I'm kind of chosen, then all the fears that I have about myself, about being not lovable. Then that will dissipate. Right. And that puts so much weight on dating and how you're showing up in dating. That makes a lot of sense. And then the other part of the HSP and dating is you already have an amazing superpower because you are so sensitive to other people's emotions. tone and expressions and mannerisms and even what their word choices and how they text. Sometimes we tend to overread into those things, but you're still getting incredible information and don't dismiss that. That is in fact, a superpower and HSPs have incredible intuition. If they're in that steady place within themselves, right? If they're not feeling secure within themselves, it's easy for them to tell themselves a story and to. Believe whatever it is that they want to believe in the moment rather than seeing things clearly, but knowing that because I'm a highly sensitive person, I am highly sensitive to the energies of other people. And I can better know and recognize when somebody is who they say that they are. I can better recognize when we are in resonance or in dissonance with each other. I can better recognize what the red flags are. Because you are highly sensitive. So it can be a huge gift in the dating relationship too. I love that. I think the, the trouble that people tend to get in is when the, I need to be chosen is. Louder or larger than the, this is really good information, right? Because you can take in that information and the brain just wants what it wants sometimes. And especially in love, I think the brain can often veer off and just go in a direction. But if you're like, Oh, I'm getting this information that this person. isn't really paying attention to me on this date, or they seem distracted, or the texting is not right. So I think that's really important. And also, man, what you said about storytelling, bringing this back. Especially in dating, I often talk to people that are anxious daters and this, for me, the storytelling aspect, understanding that my brain was creating these actually seemingly beautiful possibilities of rom com of like, Oh, this guy could be the one, or this kid, he seems really great. Or all these things. Yeah. Yeah. Just understanding that. That's what it is. It's just story. And your job is to confirm, right? Your brain can be doing all that stuff and be doing those jumping jacks and, and be creating, like I said, possibility and this opportunity for you. And it's coming from a beautiful place of like excitement and love and joy and all these things. But again, to like ground down and be like, okay, But let's see if that's true. Yes. And it can be very easy to fall into the trap too, of if somebody else is super excited about us, we turn up the volume on that. But yes, this is it because they love me. But then we might be turning down the volume on those little nudges that we're getting that, Ooh, that was kind of a weird thing that they did. Or, huh, did they really say that? Like, we're muting the volume on that. And so another part of being an HSP is really taking the time to develop your own intuition and distinguishing between when it's an intuition, an intuitive knowing versus a story in our heads. And I think one way to really tap into that, to see if it's really intuition is to see how you feel when you're experiencing emotional calm. When we're experiencing heightened emotion, be it love or lust or hormones, or be it insecurity or fear, or is something else that's happening for us negatively, those heightened emotions are going to be skewing the lens, but checking in with yourself when you're feeling calm, when you're thinking clearly. And one way that you can really help to see things a little bit more clearly is even journaling. Of course, when you're in an early relationship, the emotions are all over the place. So taking the time to journal on the red flags and green flags when you're in a really great place and also journaling on it when you're maybe having a harder time because you're going to be seeing things through those lenses. But it's only when you combine those two that you can really get a bit more of a full picture as to what's actually happening here. Because again, yeah, we want to tell the story. We want to find the happily ever after, and we want to write whatever story we need to, to get there. But then we might miss a few villains along the way, right. That are just incognito. I'm so glad you brought up this intuition because in the beginning of our conversation, you said something and I was like, we need to revisit this. So it's so perfect that you're bringing it up because I think a lot of people, that's a question that always comes up, right? It's always like, well, how do I know if I'm being sensitive or. you know, when you're, when you're like talking about what we said in the beginning, someone scrunches their nose or they roll their eyes and you make it mean all this stuff about you, right? How do you differentiate between, okay, they were just, had an allergic reaction. You know, they have allergies versus actually that person's being really snide and I see them making, rolling their eyes behind my back and sort of like, I'm, I, there's intuition here that, you know, That, that something seems off and, and I guess keeping it in the, in the frame of dating, you know, if you're, if you're dating someone and, and you're like, um, I don't know. I think this guy is just interested in sleeping with me possibly, right? Tuning into, Oh, well, maybe he was just being friendly and, you know, whatever. And, and differentiating between that. That's, that's where I, I think a lot of people struggle with their intuition. Yeah. And the truth is it takes practice. And also we kind of have the belief that, well, if I'm really good at developing my intuition, then I will never experience hardship in a relationship. But sometimes, People are just sneaky people, right? And they tend to prey on the highly sensitive, the empaths, the, the people that just love to love. And sometimes you're going to go on dates with some real horrible humans because you're such an amazing human and they want to have access to that. Right. So sometimes you might not even see them. See the things until hindsight and having that compassion. You know, there was a gal I was talking with recently where she went on a date with somebody and they're like, Oh yeah, let's, let's sync the music with your phone. And so that you can pick the music and she's saying, Oh, this is such a nice thing. And then later found out that the dates phone was totally blowing up because the date was actually engaged to somebody else. And the family just found out that they're on a date with this gal. And so then she could see in hindsight that, Oh, well, that was actually a red flag. But in the moment she's thinking, Oh, how nice they want to learn my music taste. And this is such a great thing. And she didn't do anything wrong. It's not that her intuition was off. It's just that that person was very good and very convincing and very smooth talking. And so, so giving yourself that compassion too, that as you're working to develop your own intuition. Yeah, practice trusting it and also don't beat yourself up if you miss something. It's not a reflection on you. It's a reflection on them. Wow. I'm, that was so powerful what you just said, because that understanding that people are wanting to develop their intuition because they think it's going to keep them safe. Yeah. Wow, that is, is really important, I think, for people to hear because I see it all the time where people are trying to do that and what, what we're saying to is like seeing it in hindsight, right? You're like, Oh, I should have known that. I've certainly had that experience in dating where I was like, Oh, you know, He said that thing, I remember I was dating a guy and he made a comment that was like, very clearly he was unavailable. You know, he was sort of like, you know, I don't know if I really want to owe anybody anything. And I was like, Oh, okay. You know, and then later on, I was like, starting to feel really icky inside. And I was like, Hmm, this feels weird. And then I moved past it, but I remember feeling really anxious. And I remember later when it ended a few days later, a week later, whenever it was that I was like, that wasn't anxiety. That was my intuition. And I sort of was kicking myself because I was like, Oh, I ignored my intuition. How did I not know what, whatever. But. I'm like, you have to remember you're seeing it in hindsight and hindsight truly is 2020. You're like, Oh, okay. And I think bringing it back around, this is where that self worth and self confidence really comes in. Because to me, when, if you have a, a low standard for yourself or have low self confidence, You're not going to be able to tune into your intuition because you're always going to think, Oh, it must be something about me. If I was more, if I could just be more lovable, if I could just be prettier, if I could just do X, Y, Z. It's going to be really hard to tune into that because you're trying to. Proof, prove that you're worthy. Right? Yeah. Well, and I've had similar experiences where in an attempt to prove that I was worthy, or there's different situations where, where maybe I trusted somebody that I shouldn't have. And then there is that self blame that's there, but it's also working through that. And I've coached many people on this as ultimately I like that part of me. I like the part of me that chooses to see the best in people. I like that part of me. That's not something that I want to shame or to blame or to do away with. That's how I want to show up in the world. And that means sometimes I'm going to get hurt, but I actually think it's a gift to, to have that ability, to see the best in other people and to hope for the best in other people. And I do. Strongly believe that most people in this world are good people that aren't big jerks that just want to hurt you. I think that that's true for most people, but when we try to just keep ourselves safe and say, okay, well now I'm just never going to, you know, use that dating app or I'm never going to put myself out there. Yeah. And this way we're, we're limiting ourselves from connecting with the people that we really do resonate with. And so knowing that sometimes I'm going to have some experiences that aren't great and they might hurt and I can learn from them, but I'm not going to let them define who I am. And I actually really like who I am. And yeah, I can see that some jerks are really drawn to me, not because I'm weak, but because I am. Awesome. And they want access to that energy and, and kind of flipping that internal dialogue. Oh, MaryAnn, I love this so much. I think you have such a positive outlook for these people. Whoever gets to work with you is so lucky because you're like, yeah, truly, because you're like, it's so special. I think again, going back to society and thinking of how we view these people. And a lot of times they're, they're probably really, I know I was really an emotional turmoil when it's to be able to shift from that place of this is hurting me. This is causing me pain to like an empowered place of like, I love this about me. You know, this is something really special and really cool. You know, if we're talking spidey senses, I'm like, what a cool thing when not everybody's like this. That's a really, really important place to be. Yeah. And realizing like, you know what? I can't blame the jerks for liking me. I'm really awesome. You know what too, I think it's really worth mentioning. I, I see this often. How do I stop getting jerks to be attracted to me? Yeah. I see this question all the time. How do I stop attracting? Unavailable people. How do I stop attracting people that only want sex or whatever the situation is. And it's like, listen, the reality is you're not going to stop attracting them. That's the wrong question to be asking. The question is how much are you going to tolerate them? Yes. Right? Yes. Yes. It's a really important distinction between the empowerment and disempowerment. Yes. And that we teach people how to treat us through the behaviors that we're willing to tolerate. Right. And so you're probably going to have some jerks come through that don't treat you very well. And guess what? When they don't treat you well, they're going to tell you it's your fault and that you're worthless and that you should Tolerate their mistreatment. They're going to want to convince you that they should be the exception to your role and to your boundary. But by tolerating it, you're telling him this is okay with me. But by setting those boundaries and being solid in yourself that no, I do not have to tolerate that. I love that. Yes. Set those boundaries and let them know. Sorry, I know that I'm totally for you, but you are not for me. Yeah. And I will say, I also think we do get to a point where I know that I just said, no, you're not going to stop attracting them, but you do stop attracting them. Eventually when you turn enough of them away, when you start saying no, because It uplevels your worth. Right. And it uplevels, someone will see you. And I do believe in energetics, right? Like when you raise your energetic level to be like, I'm not even going to tolerate that in the slightest. Right. It gets to a point where someone sees you and they're like, This crap is not going to work on this person. So I might as well, I'm going to see myself through the door. They know that it's a different level of showing up. And over time they're, they're just going to know, Hey, this is a high value person. This is a person that values themselves and has a high regard for themselves. So. I can't penetrate the wall anymore, which is, which is a really good, good position to be in. Yeah. So true. And the more firm you are in your boundaries and the more solid you are in yourself, they will pick up on that even on a subconscious level that, okay, they're out of my league. They're not going to buy my crap. Right. Yeah. They're not going to tolerate that. And that's like the type of out of my league that I can get on board with. Right. Like I'm usually like, nobody's out of your league year, but I'm like, yeah, emotionally I'm out of your league. Right. And value wise, I'm out of your league. That's amazing. Well, is there anything else that you want to leave people with? Is there, I think be really helpful to just get advice for both. The highly sensitive person and how they relate, right? We're talking about how they're showing up in dating and friendships and probably with their families as well. Any advice for people that are highly sensitive for how to better move through relationships and how to build healthy relationships. Yeah. I mean, I really think it just comes down to really coming to truly believe that your sensitivity is a gift, that it is a superpower, that those that are judging it, that's about them. If they don't have the capacity to be as sensitive as you. You are, that's just them. That's their experience. Right. But it really is a gift and aligning yourself with people that also see it as a gift and becoming more firm and solid in yourself. So that, yeah, just like we talked about that people recognize, okay, well, they're not going to put up my, with my crap and they're out of my league and really seeking out those relationships that honor your sensitivity as a gift that it is like your whole life will change just by aligning yourself with that. So yeah, that's what I'd say is, yeah, it is a superpower. It's not a weakness. Yeah. And what about people who are navigating relationships with people that are highly sensitive? Yeah, you guys, you have the most amazing partner ever because seriously, because if they are a highly sensitive person, then you have probably noticed that you hardly have to express yourself at all because they just know when you're having a rough day. They just know when you could really benefit from being taken out for ice cream. And so. Thank them, give them a huge thank you for their gift and find little ways to support them. The thing with a highly sensitive people is they really do experience a lot of joy from loving and serving others. They require so little for maintenance. So do something kind and thoughtful for them, and they will 10X. That's how amazing highly sensitive people are. So be so grateful for the highly sensitive people in your life because yeah, they are so amazing and they help to make everybody's lives more sustainable for them. And so any little thing that you can do to make their level of loving and serving more sustainable for the HSP. It will just be so appreciated. Oh, I love that. It's like, Oh, you hit the person jackpot. Congratulations. You win. That's a lottery. That's a human lottery that you won. That's so cool. And I will just say that some of the kindest things that people have done for me is reflect back to me and say like, You didn't make me feel this way, or this isn't your responsibility or just whether it's my relationship with them or them seeing me suffer in a relationship of like, God, I really disappointed this person. And then saying their disappointment is theirs. You know, I think that's been such a healing space to be in. And I'm very thankful for all the people that have done that for me. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Cool. This has been amazing. There's, I could go on and on and talk about this. You're so knowledgeable. You're so empathetic. Like I said, anybody working with you is so lucky because you are just so wealth of knowledge. And so, um, you know, you lived it and what better to work with somebody that like knows the experience and has moved through it. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. And yeah, I appreciate the work that you're putting out into the world. The world just needs more highly sensitive coaches and especially ones that can help support them in their relationships. So yeah, I love the work you're doing. Thank you. Thank you. And tell everybody where they can get in touch with you and how to work with you. Yeah. So you can go to my website, MaryAnn Walker dot life. You can also find me on Facebook, Instagram, Tik TOK, and YouTube at MaryAnn Walker dot life. Actually. I think YouTube is inner work with MaryAnn Walker. Um, I also have a podcast by that same name, inner work with MaryAnn Walker, where I offer more support specifically for the empaths and the highly sensitive people. So yeah, come and find me over there. I would love to have you be a part of my community as well. Thank you so much, MaryAnn. This was such a pleasure. Well, thank you. It was good to see you. Good to see you. Bye.