195: Boundary Setting for Highly Sensitive People with Boundary Coach, Kami Orange

Struggling to set boundaries as a highly sensitive person? You’re not alone. In this episode, boundary coach Kami Orange shares 19 years of experience helping people stop people-pleasing and start saying what they mean—with clarity, kindness, and confidence.

Kami reveals practical boundary phrases and scripts you can use immediately, including how to say no without guilt, respond to difficult requests, and navigate family, work, and social situations. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by overgiving or unsure how to assert yourself, this episode is for you.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• The four boundary choices: Silence, Indirect, Direct, and Extremes—and when to use them
• How to say no in a soft but firm way that protects your energy
• The HSP-friendly boundary framework: “I can’t do X, but I can do Y”
• Real-life examples for handling overcommitment, money requests, and challenging conversations
• How understanding communication styles and cultural differences can make boundary-setting easier

Challenge for the Week:
Pick one area where you tend to overgive and practice a boundary phrase from this episode. Notice the difference between a weak no and a strong no—and how it empowers your yes.

Work With Me:
Create a life free of guilt and overcommitment. Apply for a free clarity call here: https://calendly.com/maryannwalkerlife/freeconsult

Don’t Forget to Subscribe:
Subscribe to never miss tools and strategies to help you set boundaries, reclaim your energy, and thrive as a highly sensitive person.

Links Mentioned in This Episode:

Connect with Kami Orange: https://kamiorangeinfo.com/?utm_source=ig&utm_medium=social&utm_content=link_in_bio&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQMMjU2MjgxMDQwNTU4AAGn3TvouJFLCLM61q6uJAGLy380YaHAWn12YzbPbrKD0JwggP6K8zFDloTmuns_aem_d5_XHEDNkcX-hoCLlVJ8dg

Purchase "Say the Thing: Boundary-Setting Scripts & Phrases to Communicate Directly & Speak Up with Kindness" By Kami Orange 

https://amzn.to/4jBNN1P

Come and work with MaryAnn: https://maryannwalker.life/

Transcript

0:18

Well, hello and welcome back. My name is MaryAnn Walker. I'm the life coach for highly sensitive people, and if you are a highly sensitive person who has struggled with boundary setting, I really want you to lock in today. As my kids say and really listen to this full episode. I am so excited to be sharing an interview that I did with Kami Orange. She is a boundary coach that has been collecting boundary phrases as she calls them, and also practicing stating boundaries and teaching people how to do so for the last 19 years, and she has so much to offer. So I hope that you'll really enjoy today's episode. I know that many of you are wanting to learn how to state more clear and concise boundaries for the new year. That's a resolution that I see time and time again with this population, and I really hope that today's episode can help to bring you clarity and help you to see that maybe setting boundaries isn't as scary as we make it out to be in our minds. So without further ado, here's my interview with Kami Orange.

MaryAnn Walker: 1:12

oh my goodness, I'm so excited for today. I have Kami Orange on the show today. Hello Kami. Thank you so much for being here.

Kami Orange: 1:20

Hello. I'm glad to be here MaryAnn

MaryAnn Walker: 1:22

Camie popped up in my feed. Just randomly, I hadn't heard of her before, and she randomly popped up in my feed and I instantly fell in love with her content. I was binge watching all of her videos, and I swear like within 10 minutes I was like, oh my gosh. She has such a clear and concise way of not only speaking about boundaries, but giving people actual words to say when stating boundaries. I was like, oh my gosh, we need to have her on the show. So I am so appreciative to you for coming on and being willing to collaborate because I've been so impressed with your work.

Kami Orange: 1:57

Thank you. I am really excited to be here and to talk to you and the other highly sensitive people.

MaryAnn Walker: 2:05

Yeah. So for listeners that are new to your work, can you just kind of briefly share like what inspired you to write your book, say the thing, and how has Clear Communication shifted your life?

Kami Orange: 2:15

Absolutely. So I found a gap in the boundary literature, the boundary education literature that existed. And there's a lot of content that talks about, hey, boundaries are important. Hey, if you wanna have a happier life, you should have boundaries. You know, if you're struggling with X, Y, and Z, boundaries are the answer. But then when you dive into it. And the actual practical in the moment. How do you actually set those boundaries? What are you supposed to do? And throughout my 19 years of working with clients, every career path, every little thing I've done, whether it was I owned a clothing retail company and I was helping people, you know, work through their wardrobes, I'm there to go through their clothes, go through their closets, and what they're asking me is, Hey, my husband hates this dress you know, and I still wanna wear it. What do I say to him? And I was like, oh, you could say this, or you could say that. Or, you know, I was a traveling business consultant where I would move around the country and stay with small business owners and help them put their businesses online. And, you know, I'm there to build a website and support them in that. And they're like, oh, you know, I have these clients, they're texting me at 11:00 PM and I, you know, they're a high ticket. And so I, I don't really wanna respond, but also I don't wanna lose that relationship. What can I say? And I was like, oh, you could say this, you could say that. And so I realized over time that no matter where I went or what I did, what people were asking me for was exact scripts, exact ways to respond. And so I. I'm a spiritual person, had a moment and I said, you know, I think the universe is sending me a sign. And so five years ago I said, alright, I'm a boundary coach and that is specifically my specialty in the boundary education field is the words to say. And so when the opportunity came up to put together a book, I knew immediately an encyclopedia boundary phrases that cover a vast variety of topics was what I wanted to do. And I've been asked like, oh, why didn't you do like a chapter on mother-in-laws versus a chapter on spouses? I said, everybody's relationships are different. The boundaries I would set with my mother-in-law or my spouse are not the same as you. But that doesn't mean that, you know, if let's say it's your spouse, your mother-in-law, commenting on your body, the kind and direct phrasing is similar to say, Hey, I'm not comfortable with you commenting on my body. Please don't do that. I would say that no matter the relationship, and so the book is organized topically as opposed to relationally for that reason. So if somebody is, you know, commenting on your pronouns, there's a whole chapter on that and it doesn't matter who that person is. It could be a friend, it could be a coworker.

MaryAnn Walker: 4:55

Yeah. And I know you said it's your specialty to come up with these phrases, but I'm gonna say it is your superpower because honestly, that was what I loved most about just scrolling through your content, was you gave people so many options and it was to fit various situations, to fit various relationships, but also to fit various personalities. Because some people are more bold than others, and others are a bit softer spoken and that you provided a script for everyone on that spectrum, depending on how they're feeling in the moment, I think is so beneficial because oftentimes we know what it is that we want to have happen, but we don't know how to find the words in order to reach that end result. And you're able to not only come up with those phrases, but also to to word them in such a kind and clear way where it takes the drama out of boundary setting. I think we all have a significant amount of mind drama when it comes to boundary setting.

Kami Orange: 5:51

I agree. I think that boundaries in some ways have turned into not only a buzzword, but a big scary thing where they're like, okay, today's the day. Today I go set boundaries. And I was like, we could make it a big scary thing or consider we could just say, Hey MaryAnn, I'm a little uncomfortable when you did that. Is that something that we could put a pause on? And then you go, oh yeah, of course. And that's it. Like it's can be as easy and gentle as that communication. And in my experience, if I bring this really big, intense energy to that conversation, if I'm all worked up and I come in and I say, MaryAnn, I need you to not do that anymore. You are gonna feel real defensive, real fast, and we're gonna have a very different boundary setting interaction. And so I think it's almost like a, a confirmation loop where people say, well, boundaries are hard and scary because they're bringing hard and scary vibes to that conversation. They feel hard, like it's hard and scary. They bring that and then the other person's reacting to that and they're like, see, it was hard and scary. And I was like, okay, what if we can just be kind and calm?

MaryAnn Walker: 7:03

Yeah. and that's what I love about your specific phrases. I love how you keep saying that you've been collecting boundary phrases is what she says on her social media. But I think specifically when it comes to the HSPs. They're not going to be the loud people and, and a lot of my coaching is around, you're not gonna be a big jerk if you state a boundary. But I think for many HSPs, they became highly sensitive to other people because they felt so uncomfortable around these strong, domineering people. And they have it in their head. I can't be that way. But if that's the only way that they've ever seen boundaries stated with them, and they're not even boundaries in that case, it's more bullying. But when that's all that's been modeled to them, it makes it a lot harder.'cause they don't wanna be seen as. Scary and big and a big jerk. They just wanna, they just wanna say what they're feeling.

Kami Orange: 7:49

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the number one, how do I say this? I provide not only boundary phrases which I collect, but also boundary scripts. And the difference between them is a boundary phrase is like a quick one-liner, maybe two lines that we can just memorize and use in the moment. A script is usually a little bit more pre-planned, has more steps, more structure, and so the boundary phrase that I recommend for all the HSPs I've ever met it to memorize would be the, I can't do X, but I can do Y. And so if I said, MaryAnn, can you pick me up at the airport at two in the morning? And you could say, oh, I can't pick you up at the airport at two in the morning, but I can help order the Uber. Or I can't, do that, but I am happy to, check on the flights or, help you organize the shuttle or whatever that is. And so it's not a hard No, it's a, I'm, I'm not gonna do what you have asked me. I'm not gonna bring four dozen cookies to the bake sale, but I can make a$25 donation or whatever that is. And so if whoever's listening to this, we don't get anything else out of this episode, that would be my piece for you. My gift to you as a boundary coach is memorizing the structure. I can't do X, but I can do Y. So when people are asking you, oh, will you do this thing? Oh, I'm not gonna, be at a 7:00 AM meeting, but I can, call in on the phone on my way in.

MaryAnn Walker: 9:20

Oh, thank you for sharing that. And I love, that's in the beginning. I think that's gonna really help to set the tone for today because I think a lot of HSPs then, that's what they really have a hard time with is well, But I want to be helpful. I don't want to say no. Like that's what they have in their mind is being a jerk. And so I love that idea of I can't do that, but what can I do? I can do this. I can't pick you up at the airport. I can water your plants. I can't, you know, I love that idea of looking for it, but what can I do that's still gonna feel loving and supportive? It's still going to give me evidence for myself that, number one, I'm not a jerk. Number two, I am investing into the relationship in positive ways. I think that sometimes because we tie our worth to what it is that we're doing, it can be helpful to just think, okay, well I can't do that, but I can do this, and working within our own limits, so that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that.

Kami Orange: 10:07

You are welcome.

MaryAnn Walker: 10:08

And now in your book then you talk about how we all have four boundary choices. Will you talk a bit about what those four boundary choices are?

Kami Orange: 10:16

Absolutely. So in the paperback, it's page five, so it's right up at the beginning and it starts with a story about a client I have, that we'll call Mateo and oh, bless Mateo's heart. Super, super sweet. So we get on our client session and he's like, I'm quitting my job. And I was. Oh, your, your job that you love, that you've worked really hard, your whole career to get, and that pays you really well, and you moved for? That job? Like, why are we quitting this job? And his coworker was cutting their fingernails in the cubicle next to him, and it was making him crazy. He's like, every day, every day this coworker is trimming their nails. And personally, my first thought was. What is this coworker eating? Or what supplements are they on? That their nails are growing so fast they have to cut them every day. But I, that was not the point. Um, I was like, can you ask your coworker what supplements are on? But that's, that was not a, I didn't actually say that, um, but I said, okay. And he said, oh, it's making me crazy. I have to quit. And I said, okay, well, if this is bothering you so much, what did your coworker say when you said something to them about it? He's like, what? And I was like, Mateo, did you say anything to the coworker? Well, no, I don't. I don't wanna be a jerk. I said, okay, so. Within the four boundary choices, we have silence, which is what he was trying, which is doing nothing, saying nothing, avoiding the whole situation and the opposite end, which is the extreme, which is doing everything, saying everything, quitting the job. You know, like there's kind of this spectrum and those are the two ends of it. And so it is very common for people to go from silence and it like builds up, builds up, builds up like a volcano, and then it becomes this extreme and they skip right over the two stages in the middle, which is indirect communication or direct communication. So the four boundary choices are silence. Indirect communication, direct communication and extremes. And all of those choices are valid and are all necessary in certain scenarios. And it's okay to give yourself permission to do any of those choices depending on what's going on. But doing them on purpose, doing them consciously, can be helpful. And so I walked Mateo through, I said, okay. We tried silence before we try extremes. You know, indirect would be, Hey, I've noticed you, I'm a really direct person. So sometimes I have to really think to be like, what would be the indirect way to say this?'cause I'm like, I'm noticing that you cut your nails every day. What's going on with that? And people are like, that's really direct. I'm like, is it? Um, and so the indirect option,, would be. you could drop a hint, you could say, Hey, you know, why do you always cut your nails at lunch? And, direct would be like, Hey, could you please stop cutting your nails at lunchtime every day? And Mateo was like, well, I'm not gonna do the direct thing. And I was like. Okay, let's try indirect. And so it ended up working out. And you know, the next time they bumped into this coworker, they said, Hey, I've been wondering why do you cut your nails every day at lunch? And he's like, oh, I'm eating oranges and I don't like the way the pulp gets like under my nails. And so I cut my nails every day. I didn't realize you could hear that. And he was like, yeah, and you know, your nail clippers are kind of noisy. And the coworker was like, oh, I'm not gonna do that anymore. And they stopped. That was the end of it. And so those four choices, like I said, silence, indirect communication, direct communication and extremes. And indirect just means you are implying and direct is like to the point and they have value in different scenarios. and is it okay if I get into that a little bit

MaryAnn Walker: 14:12

Absolutely. Please do.

Kami Orange: 14:13

Okay. So. Direct communication can be really good when we have a lot of people from different backgrounds in the same space, or who are trying to communicate together because we cannot assume that other people know what we're talking about. And so you have to be more direct. Indirect communication has a lot of value when everybody has a shared background, a shared pool of knowledge, if you will, and so that way we can have a whole conversation with just, a raise of an eyebrow. And a flick of a finger, and then we're all go, oh, I know what that is. And if you've ever spent time around people that you know very, very well, you know, it might be a spouse, it might be a sibling, might be a best friend that you grew up with, you can have this almost unspoken communication happening. Where something else happens in the room, And you and I make eye contact and it's because we both saw that and we both know what that means and go, oh! And so without saying any words, we have a whole conversation of like, did you see that? Yeah, I did see that. Can you believe? Oh my goodness. But that's indirect. And so what happens though is people who come from indirect families come from indirect cultures, start interacting with direct communicators who are just like, Hey, please don't do that. And they're like, Ugh. Oh no.

MaryAnn Walker: 15:31

Mm-hmm.

Kami Orange: 15:33

Because in an indirect community, if you say the thing, if you are very blunt, that's rude. That's a lot that can be mean and, but in a direct community, hinting, hinting is rude. Hinting is is not appropriate like whatcha doing? Why don't you just ask? And so it's reading the room and understanding who you're communicating with. If you and I come from the same background, sure we can do indirect. If we come from very different backgrounds, we're probably gonna need direct communication because I cannot assume we have the same cultural. Understanding, um, the example I like to use, so I'm married and my sweet husband is from a small farm town in central Utah, and I grew up in suburbia. So in suburbia it is very normal and okay, if you just have to turn around real quick'cause the roads are skinny, you pull into somebody's driveway, you back, back out like a one point turn, two point turn, whatever that's called, and then you pull forward. That is an appropriate thing to do. It is not a problem. You can't park in their driveway. You can't block their driveway. But it is okay to very briefly pull the front of your car into someone's driveway and back out. So where he's from, you do not trespass on other people's land, period. Where he grew up. That is a sin, that is a crime, that is a problem. And so we were driving down this road and we needed to turn around and I was like, oh, we can just like pull in right here and back out. And he's like, no, we can't. And I was like, what? What do you mean we'll be on their land for like two seconds? And he is like, Nope. So we did like a 15 point turn on the road, so we didn't like pull onto someone else's property. And we had this whole conversation of like, oh, different cultures have different rules and mores, rules and expectations, and so if I come from a culture that's direct, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's totally okay to, you know, pull in the driveway and pull back out. And if he comes from a culture that's indirect, you do not ever trespass, period. And so it's been helpful as our relationship has grown to say, okay, is the reason we're having conflict a cultural difference? And that would be my, my suggestion to highly sensitive people is in some ways to think of it as a cultural difference. Nobody is right and wrong. The, to pull into somebody's driveway, depending on where you come from, maybe feels wrong to you, or to not pull into somebody's driveway feels wrong to me, it does. I was like, this is ridiculous. But it's not actually wrong. Nobody's harming anybody. It's simply a cultural difference. And so to realize that as an HSP, your culture as an HSP is prone towards indirect communication. That is okay. There's nothing wrong with that. And if you're interacting with cultures and people who prefer a lot of direct communication, you're gonna have a different experience. Or let's say your default setting is silence or hinting. that silence, indirect communication, that is okay. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with that. but it only works in certain scenarios like Mateo with the fingernail clipping. He was choosing silence and then he was after a certain point. I'm going to, quit this lovely job. And that would be my, caution is if you choose silence, that's valid and okay, but are you choosing silence and then you're gonna swing it out to an extreme? Or are you gonna choose silence and then step into indirect communication. Think of it like stepping up, up stairs. Okay? We tried silence. Silence wasn't working anymore, so we try indirect. Oh, indirect isn't working anymore. So now we're gonna try direct. Oh, if direct is not working anymore, now I need to try extremes.

MaryAnn Walker: 19:28

Yeah. Okay. I have so many things to say on all of that. First of all, I was busting up over the Mateo story when I was reading book. I was like laughing out loud because I know so many people where it's like, no, I would rather just blow it all up. I'm gonna leave my job. I'm totally out. Because the thought of just having a conversation with somebody sounds so scary. So that was a hundred percent relatable. Um, but I really love and appreciate how you talk about it as being curious about the cultures. I mean, first of all, I love that the boundary phrase that you gave to Mateo, it was leading with that curiosity where I think that helps you to see that, okay, I get it. Like we just have different default settings. Like I totally joke around with my husband all the time that he's an Android and I'm an Apple and we just have different operating systems, and so there's going to be those communication issues. But it's interesting to see that, even within my marriage where we grew up very similarly, you would think that the culture was the same. But because our default settings internally are so different, when I would attempt to use, I mean, I'm historically a, a pretty, passive kind of communicator. I try to just hint at things'cause I don't wanna be rude. But for him, that was being viewed as passive aggressive, like you said, those different cultures, like you have to kind of be curious about your audience and how you want to approach things, and it can be a little scary to lean into. Okay, I'm gonna just try to lead with curiosity and just be like, so why do you trim your nails every day? And it's not abrasive, it's not accusatory, it's just curious, helps you to better understand the person. And yeah, I, I just love all of the examples that you've offered up so far. I love it.

Kami Orange: 21:09

Thank you so much.

MaryAnn Walker: 21:11

Yeah, there was another story that I saw on your Instagram that I thought was amazing and really kind of like illustrated your work that you do as well. But you talked about this French couple that you picked up. Would you mind telling that story for us?

Kami Orange: 21:25

Yes, so I live in St. George, Utah, and we are about two hours from Las Vegas, Nevada. And there was this couple that was, hitchhiking on the side of the road and they have their bike and like their tandem bike, that takes two people and they're by the freeway on ramp. And I was like, what is going on? And that was the day I was out and about a lot. And so I had like driven by, but I was on the other side of the road, whatever. I saw them earlier and then like an hour and a half later after my appointment, I was driving back, I saw them again and I was like, oh, I ran one more errand and I saw them again. I was like, okay. So I pulled over and I was like. do you need like a ride to the bike shop? they're obviously broke down on the side of the road and they didn't speak like super awesome English, but they explained they have to get to Vegas. And I was like, okay, but if your bike is broken, there are bike shops in St. George, Utah, there's actually a lot of them. And they said, no, it has to be Vegas. And I was. Okay, well I'm, I am not gonna take you to Vegas'cause I'm not gonna drive two hours down, two hours back. I have other things to do today, but I have an idea. And so I said, I'll, I'll be back. And they looked at me like, okay, whatever. She's not really coming back. And I was like, no, I promise I'm coming back. And so I drove over to the store real quick and I brought back cold water because they've been out there all day and it's hot. And then I brought back poster board and a marker. And pull over on the side of the road, get out, give them the water. And then I wrote"need ride to Vegas," in big letters, because that's where they're trying to get to. And just thumbing it on the side of the road is not communicating what they need. And so I said, I cannot take you there, but I can give you the words to get there. Like, here is this sign. And um, and then I went and ran one more errand and I came back about an hour later, you know, drove by again and they were. So like, I'm assuming it worked like,

MaryAnn Walker: 23:20

Yeah.

Kami Orange: 23:22

like they, they made it where they were going because they were clearly communicating to the cars going by, this is what we're attempting to do. the two of us and our tandem bike need to go to Vegas. And so I just thought it, I made a video about it.'cause I was like, this is the most like boundary coach thing I'd done that day was, I can't, I can't take you there, but here, here is the language to get you there. and also here's some cold water because it's hot out there.

MaryAnn Walker: 23:48

Yeah, and I love that story because first of all, it totally encapsulates what it is that you do with your work, with helping people to find the words. And also it, it's another example of what you talked about in the beginning. I can't do that. I can do that. And it is a very different thing to just help somebody learn how to communicate what it is that they want. I think a lot of HSPs don't recognize how little they do that. They, they're so afraid to give voice. I'd say that there's a lot of people that when they come to me and they say, well, I, I need to find my voice. I want to feel heard again. I want to feel seen again. And they don't recognize how much they have slid into that silence as their default setting and how just letting somebody know where it is you'd like to go, Hey, I need a ride to Vegas. It's so simple and it makes it significantly more likely that we're gonna be able to get to where it is that we want to go. But as your book says so eloquently, we have to say the thing, right?

Kami Orange: 24:49

This is true. This is very, very true.

MaryAnn Walker: 24:54

Yeah. So would you mind sharing a few of your favorite boundary phrases?

Kami Orange: 24:59

I would absolutely love to. So some of my favorite boundary phrases are the ones that I have prememorized and I just kind of keep them in my pocket for any scenario. And I found that we don't actually need that many to be memorized. You just need one or two to kind of get you through that situation in the moment. And so one of my favorite phrases is,"oh, that's not gonna work for me. What else can we do?" Oh, that's not gonna work for me. What else can we do? And I say it in a friendly tone. I say it in a kind way. I've said it to customer service people when I'm like, Hey, I need a refund on for this. And they're like, oh, there's no refunds. And I'm like, okay, you know, that's, that's not gonna work for me. Um, what other options are they? And they say, oh, well we could do a store credit, or, oh, we could do, an exchange, or we could do this or that. And then it resolves the situation.

MaryAnn Walker: 25:52

Oh, I love that one. I'm gonna sit with that one for just a minute because a lot of my HSPs, they feel like, but my reason needs to be good enough, but. When we're emotionally heightened because somebody asked us a thing and we can't do the thing, but just, oh, that's not gonna work for me, is so liberating.'cause you don't have to, I mean, a lot of HSPs rack their brain like what's gonna be a valid reason for them, but we don't think what's a valid enough reason for me and it just not working for me. That's sufficient. I love that one.

Kami Orange: 26:22

Yeah. Which leads into another really great one, which is,"oh, thank you so much for asking. Let me get back to you on that." Like, I don't need to force myself to decide in the moment if that is something I can do or not, because sometimes it's a little overwhelming. Sometimes I have to think about it and so to say, oh, think like they ask and then you go,'oh, thank you so much for asking." And that I say it enough that at this point when my husband asked me something that I'm not sure how I wanna answer, and I go, oh, thank you so much for asking. He's like. Okay, so, so you don't know what the answer is. I was like, I do, gimme a second. Like,

MaryAnn Walker: 27:04

Yeah.

Kami Orange: 27:05

just like a default. Like someone's like, oh, I have this question, and I'm like, oh, thank you so much for asking. And then I either have pause, taken a breath and have an answer, or I can say, I'm not sure. Let me get back to you on that. Or, oh, I can get back to you about that tomorrow. which brings me to my third one, which is,"oh, I can't have this conversation right now, or I don't have space for that right now," depending on who I'm talking to. Like, if it's a close friend, I might say, I'm out of energy for that topic today, but we can talk about it tomorrow. And if it is a stranger or somebody I don't know as well, I'd say, oh, I'm not really in a head space for that conversation right now, but I'd be happy to talk to you about it another time. And the purpose of that is to say not all topics are a good fit in all situations. And that's okay. Like, it's fine. I don't have to talk about heavy, hard things in every scenario. But that doesn't mean I won't, it just means, oh, I'm gonna, set a limit on that right now, and that's okay. And so to say, oh, I'm not in the right head space for that conversation right now. Can we try again another day and notice that all of these are soft no's. And that's something, you know, underlying every boundary is, you know, do you have a strong yes and a strong no? And you can communicate that no, in a soft way. You can communicate it in a bold way, but it still needs to be strong. And something that, you know, if I could give one piece to all the ah HS piece I've ever met is, hey, if you have a weak, no, you don't actually have a real yes. And so if I ask you MaryAnn something, and then you can't actually say no, you don't feel safe, you don't feel comfortable, for whatever reason, you are not okay to say no when you say yes to me, that's not actual consent. That's not real. And so the idea of having a strong yes and a strong no can be really powerful. And so even if I'm communicating my No, in a soft way, thank you for asking. Let me think about it and I'll get back to you. Oh, I, I can't do that, but I can do this. Um, I'm not in a head space for that conversation right now, but we can pick it up another time. that's not gonna work for me. What else can we do? Notice how all of those are still soft, but they're underlying with No, I'm saying no. Like I'm not wishy-washy like I am saying No. And I have permission to say no because I wanna have permission to say yes.

MaryAnn Walker: 29:34

Yes. I love that because I think for so many of us, and this is me included, like this has been a part of my journey, is when you're highly sensitive to everybody else's feelings, you tend to become a people pleaser. And so in the moment I'm saying, yes, of course I wanna do this thing for you, but then. Like you said, I love how you said that if you have a weak no, you don't have a strong Yes, because I didn't have a strong Yes, I was saying yes in the moment, but I love your boundary statement of, okay, well hey, let me get back to you on that, because oftentimes it leads to overcommitting, it leads to burnout, and then you find yourself resenting the person even though you said yes to it. So you can't be mad at them'cause you're the one that said yes. But to buy yourself some time that yes, I value saying yes when I can, but I'm not gonna say yes at the risk of saying no to what I need.

Kami Orange: 30:25

I agree. And framing that doesn't work for everybody. I have clients that this doesn't work for. So if I say this and people are like, Hmm, that's not me, that's okay. But a framing that does work for some people is identifying the parts. Oh, most of me is okay with this, but part of me is mad that I said yes, or, 80% of me is like, yeah, this is a great idea. I did say, yes, I feel good about this. And 20% of me is like, ugh. Do I have to? I don't wanna, and so for me, acknowledging that disconnect can be supportive because I do sometimes say yes to things that like I said, intuitive person, that I have a strong intuitive, like, yes, go do this thing. But then when it comes right up to it, I'm like, oh, I don't want to, and instead of doubting my intuition, instead of doubting my choice, I'm like, okay, did I make the wrong choice? Or is it part of me is tired and is not in the mood, but that doesn't mean that I made the wrong choice. You know, it's a 80 20, 60 40, whatever that is. And something that I've noticed with highly sensitive people is often they doubt their choice. And I think that can be a side effect of having a weak yes. And a weak no is because if most of the time your yes is not real because you didn't feel like you could say no, then you're doubting"oh, I said yes to this, but I don't know. Oh, I said yes to this, but I don't know. I said yes. I don't know" when Really, if you were like, I could say no to anything, anywhere, anytime, any place to anyone, and it is easy and not a problem, then when I say yes, I don't doubt my yes, because I had the choice to say no.

MaryAnn Walker: 32:08

That is so true. Yep. Because I think that's so many HSPs, they put their worth on the validation of other people. So of course, if you're saying yes to somebody, you're gonna get that immediate validation from the external. But then it does kind of create a little bit of that identity crisis. And like you said, like then you're questioning your own values and your own intent, and well, did I do the wrong thing? It makes it right and wrong. Instead of, oh, well that was a choice and part of me is glad I did it. And part of me isn't like I love that parts work as well.

Kami Orange: 32:38

Yeah. Yeah, and I think especially when you're a people pleaser and you're trying to set boundaries, something to keep in mind is if that was your default before and you're changing that the people will not be pleased.

MaryAnn Walker: 32:49

Mm-hmm.

Kami Orange: 32:49

Like, like if you were people pleasing and then you start setting boundaries, most likely the people will no longer be pleased, and that is okay. And that's where having these softer phrases of,"oh, I can't do this, but I can do that." You know, let me think about it and I'll get back to you. Oh, that's not gonna work for me. What else can we do? Those types of phrases are a bridge to those moments where maybe you do need to say really directly"no, I'm not gonna do that. Please stop asking me." I'm not gonna change my mind. You know, a very firm, clear direct because they're not listening to your soft. No. And that can be a challenging scenario, especially if you're dealing with people who they're very used to or comfortable with you being accommodating. And if you stop being as accommodating, suddenly that is inconvenient for them or that is uncomfortable for them, and they're gonna blame you, and that doesn't mean you did something wrong. It means they get to be an adult and be responsible for their feelings. I'm not responsible for how they feel. I am responsible for being kind and acting according to my values.

MaryAnn Walker: 34:02

Okay, so let's play around with that one a little bit more. Would you give us a few more specific examples of boundary phrases when you're being asked to be a little overly accommodating or more accommodating than you're comfortable with?

Kami Orange: 34:13

Absolutely. So in my book, like I said, it's organized by topic and the idea of like, Hey, could you, do all of these things for me. There's a section on money,

MaryAnn Walker: 34:26

Mm-hmm.

Kami Orange: 34:27

page 1 66, and these phrases, what I like about them is you can. Adjust them to lots of scenarios. It doesn't just have to be somebody asking to borrow your money. But it, does start giving you language in that direction. So if I said, MaryAnn, may I borrow some money? The first option is no. You can just say no. You can just say no. That's, that is an option. You could just say literally no is a complete sentence. We can say no. we could also say, I'm not in a position to lend you any money. That is softer. that's an option. one that I typically use is, you know, if they say, may I borrow some money? I say, I don't lend money. I only give it I have had bad situations where, you know, lended money or borrowed money and then it soured the relationship. So I personally, at this point in my life, I just don't lend money to people if I'm in a position where I want to, it is a hundred percent a gift with no expectation of it ever coming back, because that's how I have to think of it. If they're like, oh, can I borrow some money? Okay, am I willing to gift money to this person?'cause there's a really high likelihood it's never coming back. So is it a gift? Am I willing to gift this amount to this person? Okay. Yes or no? And so that is an option. You could also say yes, let's have a conversation about a repayment schedule and write out a contract so it's really clear what the plan is like. I'm not saying you can't lend money to people. For me personally, I don't. But like there are lots of options and so that same thought process applies when, you know, we're overgiving and people are saying, Hey, could you do this thing? Like, notice that there's options. You could say no. You could say, yes, but we need to have really clearly defined terms. You can say, I'm not in a position to do that. Or, I can do this, but not that like it's. How do I say this? Overgiving is such a generous impulse and I believe. That our weaknesses are our strengths at the wrong volume. Kinda like music, right? If you're driving in your car and you, you know, it's the afternoon, the windows are down, the radio's going and you turn the car off and go in the house, you come out in the morning, turn the car on, and the radio is still to the previous volume. It's loud. It is like that is no longer a comfortable volume, and that doesn't mean the music wasn't good before. It just means early in the morning, wrong volume. And so the generous impulse of giving. Oh, that's so sweet. That's so beautiful. Like I love that people are generous. I'm generous, my husband's very generous. people knock on the door and they're like little kids selling candy. We buy it every time. Like we're those people. And that impulse dialed up too loud, just like music turned up too loud, is no longer doesn't sound musical, just as noise. And so to say, oh, I'm having a genuine impulse to be generous, to over give or that means you're giving, you just need to adjust your volume.

MaryAnn Walker: 37:36

I love that so much that our weaknesses are strengths at the wrong volume. And yeah, the car radio analogy is great'cause I've totally done that, where I've left the radio on and it's like shocking to the nervous system, right? It was like, I just can't, but that that totally plays in with the overgiving of the person that continuously is coming to your doorstep and asking, and asking and asking. And so I love that, that sometimes it's just knowing your own limits, that that's more than I can have right now. That yes, last night it was fine. Right Now, Uhuh, um, can you give us a few, I know our time is running short. Can you give us a few examples around setting boundaries with politics? I know I work with a lot of people right now where they have different views from family members. And how do you set boundaries around that? One specific example, um, is somebody's had a family member say, Hey, look like you have to watch this two hour documentary, or, we're not gonna be able to speak again. And like that was kind of their boundary. But then how do you set boundaries around if you really don't want to watch their two hour documentary?

Kami Orange: 38:32

I think circling back to our conversation about curiosity, that is where I would start in that scenario and say, what is it that you're hoping I'll get out of this documentary? Is there another way I can get this information that we can still move forward? why is this documentary so important to you? are you trying to educate me? Are you trying to, change my mind on something and existing in community with people who have very different political views is a big topic right now around boundary setting because sometimes these are people we're related to, these are people we care about, there's people we love, and also they're believing things that are weird or wrong. And it's like, oh, okay. And so that is the framework that I work from is. I'm differentiating where are the lines for me personally, and it's a constant topic at my house, of like, what would be a deal breaker? There are viewpoints that I'm like, Hey, you can have that viewpoint and we are not going to spend time together. And everybody gets to draw that line in their own places. for me to be really specific, that line is like, do you believe that the people that I personally care about,, the groups that I belong to and the, people I support should die? Because that's a problem. Like you can disagree with them, that's one thing, but thinking they should all just die and cease to exist, that's a line for me. That's where I draw that line. And so that would be the first piece is when you're going into those conversations, where is your own line? And that comes down to, what is your strong, yes. What is your strong No. Like I will say, yes to somebody who. Disagrees with me in certain areas but not others. And so specific phrases, when people are like, oh, you're just trying to be politically correct. It's like, I think political correctness is just compassion and fancy language, and I'm really okay with more compassion in the world.

MaryAnn Walker: 40:42

Yeah, I love that.

Kami Orange: 40:43

I'm not, I'm not defensive against that and a longer script. and this one I would say kind of moves from boundary phrase to boundary script, but it's, it's long enough and I am, I am gonna read it in at length because I think it's has value. So let's say it is this person that's like, you have to watch this documentary. because they have these specific beliefs and I would say, look. You're a wonderful person and if I didn't think you were a wonderful person, I probably wouldn't have taken the time and energy to let you know that what you said was offensive or what you're, telling me is offensive or that the documentary is offensive. I would've just let you go on your merry way, continuing to, believe that. but because I care about you, I am letting you know that I disagree with what that documentary is standing for is not okay with me. And you have the opportunity to accept that feedback or ignore everything I said, and blame it on political correctness or woke politics. And that's up to you. And so I think specific to the example with a documentary, but just politics in general is we decide where our lines are, but also say, Hey, I care about you as a person and this is something we're never gonna see eye to eye on, and can we still exist in this space? And you know, break bread and disagree. And that's okay if we can't, if I am not willing to watch this two hour documentary, and that is where you draw your line. That is your choice, but that's not where my line is. So there's kind of that direction. If that is somebody that you care about and that you need to keep existing in community with, there's also, like. They don't care about politics or they're bringing up a politically divisive topic in a setting where you cannot escape. And so, I have a whole chapter on politics in my book and it talks about, specifically that scenario. And so these are, I if you're sharing that with me, because you're assuming, I agree with you, I don't. Uh, or we see that very differently. Let's move on to another topic

MaryAnn Walker: 42:58

Mm-hmm.

Kami Orange: 42:59

Can we talk about this later? Please? I'd rather not get into a heated discussion right now and. The repeating the one that I said before.'cause again, I use it all the time. It's, you know, I'm pretty sure neither of us are gonna change our minds tonight, so let's just focus on, completing this sale or celebrating this birthday or whatever. And again, we each get to decide where those lines are. If it's somebody that I, was standing at the sandwich shop and the person behind me was like, oh, I hate all these pride flags. And I was like. Sir, I'm not the right person to share that with. Like, I'm queer. Like I love the flags. I was literally standing there admiring them. Like, no, this is like, that's a stranger. I'm not gonna see him again. I'm not gonna invest that emotional energy into saying, oh, why do you feel that way? But if it's, a family member that we're having a, a holiday meal with and they're like, oh, you know, I hate all these pride flags I say. You know, I love pride flags, and I don't really wanna debate that with you, so, you know, let's just focus on how good this meal is. But like, to me, there is value in speaking up and saying the thing, because even if the person that I'm speaking to in that setting does not change their mind, A, it can plant a seed, but B, there's always the people listening. And you're signaling to the other people at the table, Hey, I actually don't stand on that. Like maybe this is not the setting to get into a big debate about LGBTQ plus people, but like then if one of those people is in the closet, or if one of those people you know later needs support, they know that you're that person. And guess what? They also, if they disagree with that, know that you're the person to not have those conversations with, like win-win. There's no downside here.

MaryAnn Walker: 44:47

Exactly. Well, and I love that whole script that you read because it. And that's what drew me to your content was you come at it from such a place of love that yes, you do have these very clear nos and, I love all of the boundary phrases that are just very clear and concise. And also with that script, you're also expressing the love. You're saying, Hey, I'm willing to have this conversation with you because I love you, like it's leading with that love, which I think is going to really appeal to a lot of listeners because they want to have the connection. They want to find some sort of resolution. They want to let you know that they care, but they don't know how to find those words. So I, really love that script. And I'm gonna be putting a link to your book and to all your socials in the show notes, because if you just need to have a handful of phrases or if you want to look up that script, I just highly recommend Kami's content because she's just so clear and concise and kind. And no matter where you're at on the scale and how bold you're feeling, you'll be able to find something that resonates, that can be helpful for you. So Kami, do you have anything to share with listeners in closing? Like if you had one concluding message for all of the HSPs that are listening today, what would you say?

Kami Orange: 45:54

I invite you to be brave and say the thing, even if it's in a soft way, even if it's a hinting way, like if you have previously chosen silence as your only option, maybe in whatever situation that you're dealing with right now that made you listen to a whole episode on boundaries, maybe that's a sign that, yeah, it's time to say the thing. It's okay. You have permission. You can do it. I believe in you.

MaryAnn Walker: 46:18

I love that. Yep. Nobody's gonna know you need to get to Vegas unless you tell'em you need to get to Vegas. Right. Great. Well thank you so much for being here and I hope you have a great week everybody. Bye now.